martyn_bannister
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 07:20 PM |
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Total newbie - basic advice please
Hi there,
A total newbie here, for which I apologise, although I did build a Moss Malvern several centuries ago.
I find myself with a lot of time on my hands at the moment. As an intellectual exercise (because I'm probably never going to actually cut any
metal) I was pondering the following.......
I recall the old messerschmitt/isetta bubble cars. They were three (or two front + two very close together rear) wheels, joined by essentially an
aircraft cockpit tandem seat for two adults, covered by an aircraft canopy/canvas cockpit cover.
I also used to fly gliders several centuries ago and they were constructed from steel tube with plywood and canvas sides. This was before fibreglass
became the norm 
So..... I was thinking, wouldn't it be great to construct what is essentially a three wheeled pedal bike (two at the front, one at the back) for
two adults along the lines of the old micro-car and power it electrically! Construction could be all steel tube like the gliders.
Might be a good idea to power it with the back end of a scooter-type motorbike initially. Then progress to electric power.
BIG PROBLEM - I have never done this before and know nothing about where to source parts, but obviously, it's better to get existing components
whereever possible and just bolt them to a custom chassis.
So - given the above - any thoughts out there as to a possible source of the front wheels/suspension/steering? I thought of a 2CV, but the problem
is, the steering wheel is going to be in the centre, not right or left hand drive Maybe a dune/off road buggy? Again, a lawn mower front end was an
initial thought, but they don't normally have braked wheels on the front....... Don't forget, we are talking incredibly light construction
here. Oh, and there's another thought. Would it even be allowed on the road?
I am staggered by my ignorance of what is out there or has been done before, so apologise for throwing myself at the mercy of the people who
know........
Any help and thoughts appreciated.
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jacko
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 07:47 PM |
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If i was you i would u2u kipper on here he is into this type of thing do a search for his posts on here and look in his photo archives
Jacko
PS welcome to the MAD House
[Edited on 22/6/11 by jacko]
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jacko
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 07:51 PM |
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Just 1 or 2 photos from kippers archives
Jacko
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martyn_bannister
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 08:10 PM |
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Cool, thanks for that Jacko. Looks like Kipper is someone I need to talk to
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watsonpj
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 08:21 PM |
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also Russbost must have something for the furore
linky
regards Pete
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 08:36 PM |
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I would look at Quad's for steering (maybe) and definitely uprights/brake assembly's etc. They are very lightweight, but able to cope with
rough terrain, so would def be strong enough.
As for the power; Yes, a 125 scooter would make it easily fast enough. You could then move on to 175/185 for a bit more power with similar engine over
all sizes...
Obviously a (Very lightweight) steel frame could be used for you to sit on and to old the components together, but you could do the canopy building
using bent carbon poles (similar to tent or fishing poles) and then use a fabric to cover those and then fibreglass over the top?
Would be a nice little project, which wouldn't cost much and not take too much time for a one off, and then use that as a base/starting point
and make a MkII version if you really wanted to better it, or get on the road etc
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nick205
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 08:44 PM |
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In essence a cabin scooter?
smart51 on this forum is building just that IIRC. A GRP cabin with 2 front wheels powered at the rear by the back end of a scooter.
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martyn_bannister
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 08:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hignett
I would look at Quad's for steering (maybe) and definitely uprights/brake assembly's etc. They are very lightweight, but able to cope with
rough terrain, so would def be strong enough.
As for the power; Yes, a 125 scooter would make it easily fast enough. You could then move on to 175/185 for a bit more power with similar engine over
all sizes...
Obviously a (Very lightweight) steel frame could be used for you to sit on and to old the components together, but you could do the canopy building
using bent carbon poles (similar to tent or fishing poles) and then use a fabric to cover those and then fibreglass over the top?
Would be a nice little project, which wouldn't cost much and not take too much time for a one off, and then use that as a base/starting point
and make a MkII version if you really wanted to better it, or get on the road etc
Hmmmmm... a quad! Do they have braked front wheels? Excellent idea!
Don't forget I'm ultimately looking for electric power. I just thought that the rear of a scooter comes as an almost self contained unit,
so would be an easier first step. Get the complicated stuff out of the way and THEN go for electric
For the "top", I was thinking almost aluminium greenhouse and perspex type construction. Definitely not fibreglass, far too heavy.
Waterproofing is going to be the biggest headache here. I am not looking for a top speed any more than 50mph really, so we are talking pedal cycle
construction. Certainly it would be nice to have a glider style "hood", but they are incredibly complicated (read expensive), and quite
heavy, perspex mouldings. Be very Jetsons though!
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 08:56 PM |
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I don't think you fully understood the method of cnstruction I was referring to re fibreglass if you think it was too heavy. I will find you a
link on youtube and U2U you...
The method I'm thinking of and if done in the correct way would be pretty light...
Of course, if you knew someone that could make it in carbon, that would be lighter, but cost a lot more...
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martyn_bannister
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 09:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Steve Hignett
I don't think you fully understood the method of cnstruction I was referring to re fibreglass if you think it was too heavy. I will find you a
link on youtube and U2U you...
The method I'm thinking of and if done in the correct way would be pretty light...
Of course, if you knew someone that could make it in carbon, that would be lighter, but cost a lot more...
Yes please, appreciate it. Yes, CF would be nice, but as you say, very expensive 
Apparently, it can be done by your average joe -
but I've never tried it
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smart51
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 09:16 PM |
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Here's my current build, should I ever get time to finish it off. Remember that the best configuration for a 3 wheeler is front engined and FWD
with two wheels at the front. I've done that wrong then.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/31/viewthread.php?tid=141055
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martyn_bannister
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 09:48 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
Here's my current build, should I ever get time to finish it off. Remember that the best configuration for a 3 wheeler is front engined and FWD
with two wheels at the front. I've done that wrong then.
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/31/viewthread.php?tid=141055
Whoa - fantastic! Is the front suspension all DIY? What hubs/brakes?
Man, that frame is a work of art! Are those joints all TIG welded? Have you got any photos of the machine overall? It certainly looks mean and
lean!
Good luck with the rest of the build and love to see the finished result.
Have you got a link to support the the front engine FWD theory? I understand the two wheels at the front - more stable than the robin reliant approach
(as per a recent Top Gear )
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 22/6/11 at 09:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by martyn_bannister
Yes please, appreciate it. Yes, CF would be nice, but as you say, very expensive
Apparently, it can be done by your average joe -
but I've never tried it
Hi there Martyn,
Here's a Youtube link to a guy making a subwoofer enclosure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8cz_5eP81U&feature=related
Obviously the only bit you will be interested in is when he starts to pull the fleece around it and the reinforcement from behind. The principle is
very simple and hopefully you will be to understand that a subwoofer box has to cope with quite a lot of stresses and he's only used a couple
layers of 'glass to back it up, whereas you will only need it to be waterproof and not structural, so you could substitute the fleece for thin
cotton and the chop strand matt (CSM) for a woven fibreglass and make it a LOT lighter...
I've made 1 or 2 things in carbon fibre in my time. Don't believe anyone that tells you that ALL carbon weighs less than fibreglass. As a
hobbyist, you could get a 'glass canopy to weigh very little...
As for the motor/engine - if it were my project, I would go for the scooter and prob enjoy it too much and so just upgrade as it would be such a
simple job to go for a 175/185/250 etc, and would prob do a MkII as the electric one. But that's me not you and it wouldn't do for all of
us to be the same, so go for the electric one for sure!!!
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martyn_bannister
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| posted on 23/6/11 at 09:06 AM |
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Hi Steve,
With you now.
A rigid alternative to what, in my gliding days, was good old dope and canvas. As in all these things, the weight is in the liquid (soon to be solid)
added to the fabric of choice. Even papier mache (suitably varnished) would do. With a good design of "top" or "canopy", the
only real stresses are its own weight and the aerodynamic drag. The latter is not inconsequential. If you have ever towed a trailer and wrapped a
tarpaulin around the load you will know how the air can exert quite a load on a flexible surface. For a glider, nylon fabric is stretched taut over a
framework and then a shrinking dope/thinners mixture sprayed on. This sets and seals the fabric so that air (and water) cannot penetrate and also
tautens the fabric so that it resists the aerodynamic forces. It is a very light covering, but must have a very rigid framework underlying it to
resist the load applied by the taut fabric. Using something like fibreglass resin or epoxy will have the same effect but will spread the load much
more into the fabric itself.
Any solution like this would do.
Still leaves me looking for a good front suspension/steering solution though. I am currently investigating ATVs and quads. Finding out which models
have front wheel brakes is proving difficult. May have to go more towards the cycling fraternity to see what they can offer.
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Steve Hignett
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| posted on 23/6/11 at 09:46 AM |
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My suggestion is virtually the same as the stretched material and doping method you replied with (I'm just not familiar with aero building so
described it using methods I know of) but I just thought that it would be a quick, simple and cheap method for making a canopy. Well at least a
portion of the canopy that you don't need to see through 
With regard the front end - it depends on how much you want to see this as an investigative project compared to how much you want to see this on the
road. Basically, I am very much of the opinion that I'd like to see a project through to completion in asap, but a reasonable timeframe for
safety aspects etc. However if you are more of a theorist and would like everything perfect then it might turn out to be quite a lengthy project.
I understand this sounds quite condescending and I do not mean it in this way - Also from your comments it seems like you've tackled and
completed a few projects before, so as above, please don't think that I'm saying you won't complete this one! Anyway, to my point,
if you can find a front-braked quad without too much trouble, then happy days. It will be a light front end! However, a simple phone call to Martin
Keenan of MK Engineering ( http://www.mkengineering.co.uk and Home: 01709 815740 Mobile:07956397404 ) and ask him nicely to make you one of his
lightweight front uprights. They are a tried and tested upright that he's designed on CAD and been making, developing and using for years. It
obviously suits front discs and can be used with wheels from 17" down to 13" so should suit your smaller vehicle fine.
As above, it would just enable to get your project moving along the road to completion a little quicker and then when you've finished the first
one with a scooter engine, you will have a list (a very long list if it was me!) of stuff that oyu would like to better/change for hte MkII version of
your Trike...
ATB
Steve
edited to add - Whoops, forgot to include the photo of his upright!
ETA, whoops again! There are lots of steering racks that can be used, but the current trend is to use a Fiat Cinqueciento (sp?) rack as it's
cheap, light and can be used upside down and backwards (so it keeps turning the correct way)...
[Edited on 23/6/11 by Steve Hignett]
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martyn_bannister
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| posted on 23/6/11 at 06:33 PM |
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Hi Steve, thanks for that link. I will have a look at Martin's site.
As with all projects, I like to get the major portions of the work sketched out in my head and/or on paper before I start buying stuff/cutting metal.
I have learn the hard way that this tends to save time, effort and money in the long run.
I am also actively researching the ATV/Quad angle. These may well be the ideal donor vehicle, although I would want to change the wheels at
least.........
Thanks for your input.
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JF
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| posted on 24/6/11 at 09:19 PM |
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Although almost all quads are primarily designed for offroad. There are quite a few people adapting them for street use. Although for your application
I'd be looking for (the front suspension of) a light RWD sports quad. They have really light but tough front suspension and still have a nice
track. And yes they do have nice small and light brakes. Maybe you could find one with rear end or engine damage... Something like this:
Also you plan to use scooter gear... and then change to electric... I wonder why not start of with an electric scooter in the first place. Gives you
all the stuff you need. Engine and transimission, rear suspension, motor control, batteries, etc. If you wanted you could even implement the original
handlebars and controls. But they might be hard to come by as they're not as common as the petrol scooters. But they are about. A coworker has a
Vectrix motorscooter and seems quite pleased about it so might be a logical option for your project.
And it would limit your donors to 2 fairly compatible ones. Just build a frame to link them and a canopy to cover it all and you should be good to go.
As both donors are road legal (at least they are over here in the Netherlands) it's all proven road legal technogoly and should help getting it
through MSVA.
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Mistron
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| posted on 6/7/11 at 04:12 PM |
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Here is a link to a project my Pal from Uni built with 2 pals when he was working in the U.S. a few years back.
it's a bit swish!
http://www.sub3wheeler.com/
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