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Ford Main Dealer
Hellfire - 7/7/14 at 08:25 AM

Took my vehicle into Ford main dealer on Saturday for servicing and they stripped the threads on the sump plug. Can't get a sump plug until Monday (today) so I've now been without the car for three days. Had to borrow a car for Saturday, cancel a trip on Sunday and the wife has no car to get to work this morning. I'm fuming. I intend giving the garage an earful when they ring. I feel I am entitled to some level of compensation but not sure what's reasonable. What would you guys do?.....

Phil

pekwah1 - 7/7/14 at 08:37 AM

i'd personally post three identical threads about it

mookaloid - 7/7/14 at 08:46 AM

They will probably argue that it's not their fault and the threads were on their way out anyway.

DW100 - 7/7/14 at 08:57 AM

Yes that is unfortunate.

Has nothing like that ever happened to you whilst working on a car?

kj - 7/7/14 at 09:25 AM

Best to think of what is fair eaither cash or free service etc, speak to the service manager and tell them that you had to borrow a car and add fuel and what you had to cancel.

sdh2903 - 7/7/14 at 10:06 AM

One thing I've learnt in these situations if you go mental at them they will shut up shop and you will get diddly out of them. If you are calm and polite you might get something out of them. But at the end of the day anyone can strip a thread, whether they are charging 4 or 400 quid an hour particularly on an alloy sump. I've managed to strip a thread on a borescope port on a £3 million jet engine. Doesn't make me a crap aircraft engineer, sh1t happens.

Let them put it right, get a free service out of them and move on, life's too short.

[Edited on 7/7/14 by sdh2903]

wylliezx9r - 7/7/14 at 10:07 AM

Did you ask for a courtesy car ?

Agriv8 - 7/7/14 at 10:23 AM

How about :-

70 year old Father took 3 year old Cmax in for service including Brake fluid replacement ( part of a deal they sold him with the car as he gets 3 years AA cover as well! ).

A few weeks later brake warning light comes on so he takes it back. They top the fluid up and send him on his way stating that its because the pads are 1/2 worn ( and it was nothing to do with the fluid change ).

He calls around to Drop the kids off after picking them up from school and tells me this. Within 5 seconds I have found damp spots on the inside of the Rear NS alloy and marks on the inside shoulder of the Tyre. I tell him to jump in and 'Really stand on the brakes' sure enough a drip forms at the end of the bleed nipple !. lightly nipped with 11mm spanner and its sorted

Any how thought I would just look over the car and also found (in a mater of minutes)

Pipe unconnected to Air Flow meter
Oil well above the Maximum Mark ( not good for the cat or the DPF )

they make my blood boil mistakes can happen but fobbing him off that is because his pads are supposedly low is in-excusable in my book.

Agriv8

Hellfire - 7/7/14 at 10:35 AM

Just been told that the threads are stripped on the sump pan and it now requires a new sump. £330...

Phil

joneh - 7/7/14 at 10:41 AM

I once broke down on Hendy Fords forecourt at their old place in Chandlers Ford.

They told me to bring it back next Tuesday... Never been back to ford since.

kj - 7/7/14 at 10:49 AM

So are they replacing it free of charge.

twybrow - 7/7/14 at 10:54 AM

quote:
Originally posted by joneh
I once broke down on Hendy Fords forecourt at their old place in Chandlers Ford.

They told me to bring it back next Tuesday... Never been back to ford since.


I poke my friend on that one - he manages the site (new sales though, not service).

Back to the OP, tricky situation, as these things can and do happen. Were you offered or did you ask for a courtesy car? Can the sump be repaired any other way? E.g. Helicoil?

Put yourself in their shoes - customer brings in a car for work. To do said work you start removing bolts. One of them strips. Are you to blame by undoing that bolt, or was it bound to happen to anyone?

onenastyviper - 7/7/14 at 11:42 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
Just been told that the threads are stripped on the sump pan and it now requires a new sump. £330...

Phil


They should pick up the cost of either a repair to make good or replace.

If Ford are *ahem* daft enough to design a sump which cannot be repaired so the only alternative is a new sump - and they broke it the dealer should claim the cost of repair from Ford and start a non-conformance against the part for "fit-for-purpose".

SteveWalker - 7/7/14 at 11:45 AM

Personally I would have thought that stripping sump threads was a hazard of the job and that they should have a few plugs for tapping oversize or helicoils, etc, to allow them to do immediate repairs.

My worst was a Nissan dealer who had to take the engine out of my Primera Diesel to replace the mechanically driven fuel pump on the back of the engine. They needed it for a week, but took two, caused me loads of time off work by keep cancelling the return at the last minute (I lost over £500). Finally gave it back with wet seats for me to drive home. I then found that they'd cracked the offside mirror surround, re-fitted the exhaust with a twist so it knocked on the tunnel, wrecked the power steering pump, lost one of my rear mats and replaced it with a non-matching one; and while valeting the car, they'd lowered the rear seat and slammed it back up punching a hole through the seatbelt by catching it in the latch.

The piece-de-resistance was when a month later I came to replace the brake pads, popped the plastic centres out of the alloy wheels and found that when they'd removed and replaced the driveshafts to get the engine out, they re-used the split pins - one had lost one leg, but was still held by the weak remaining one, while the other had dropped out completely Let's say that I was somewhat impolite when I phoned them!

[Edited on 7/7/14 by SteveWalker]

beaver34 - 7/7/14 at 11:57 AM

what dealership is this?

DW100 - 7/7/14 at 12:17 PM

From the other point of view,

Customer brings car in for service, mechanic goes to drain the oil only to find the sump thread damaged.

Car is now stuck on the ramp.

If it has already been on the ramp for 8 working hours that will have cost them (at approx £80 +VAT an hour) £640 +VAT. With other work now backing up.

I'm sure they are doing what they can to sort it out, but it is one of those situations where things happen and nobody is going to be happy about it.

ash_hammond - 7/7/14 at 12:24 PM

Phil is local to me so i guess its the same Ford dealer I once used in Rotherham.

They fitted me a new steering column under warranty on a company car.

They forgot to put the rubber grommet bush thing back in the bulk head which the column travels/turns in. Hell of a breeze around my feet on the way home!

I drove straight back and they gave me a courtesy car (Friday). I then drove to London on Monday for a three week client engagement... they rang on Tuesday and asked for their car back. I told them to fetch it from London if they wanted it and put mine in its place... They never did.

coyoteboy - 7/7/14 at 12:26 PM

Are either of the parts lightweight alu threads?

If not you've got to be pretty cack-handed to cock up a sump plug to the point where you destroy the thread completely.

I think you've got to accept that with an older car getting routine repairs can result in sheared/stuck parts though. I've had my fair share of stuck sump plugs requiring breaker bars to remove.

quote:
Customer brings car in for service, mechanic goes to drain the oil only to find the sump thread damaged.

Car is now stuck on the ramp.


Unless the thread is totally destroyed it would be no problem to drop the oil back in, nip the plug up lightly and stick a pan under it while waiting for parts. No-one would leave a car on the ramps for 8 hours because of a slightly dodgy plug thread - hell you could push it off.

I'll be honest and say I've never had good dealings with dealers or any garage at all - they never look at the sensible options and always try to generate the most possible income and layer up their excuses as to why. When you knock down their straw arguments you walk away with a significantly smaller bill and they get upset.

[Edited on 7/7/14 by coyoteboy]

mcerd1 - 7/7/14 at 12:49 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Agriv8
....sure enough a drip forms at the end of the bleed nipple !. lightly nipped with 11mm spanner and its sorted

Any how thought I would just look over the car and also found (in a mater of minutes)

Pipe unconnected to Air Flow meter
Oil well above the Maximum Mark ( not good for the cat or the DPF )

they make my blood boil mistakes can happen but fobbing him off that is because his pads are supposedly low is in-excusable in my book.

that pretty bad

my dad took his 2 year old disco into landover for a service (also part of the deal when he bought it)


when he got home he spotted a little engine oil dripping from underneath - turns out the whole underside of the thing was saturated in oil

after some discussion the garage agreed to collect it - turns out it wasn't leaking at all, the monkey that had serviced it had spilt oil into the valley between the cylinders (V6) and that sloshing around an slowly covering the underside of the whole car and the road
if it was little spill bit then it would have been ok (its an awkward engine to service) but this was in the ball park of 5l or more !


main dealers charge 3 or 4 times the going rate and then hire monkeys to do the work

[Edited on 7/7/2014 by mcerd1]

adithorp - 7/7/14 at 02:54 PM

I'm guessing it's an ally sump. We (and every indy i know) have a set with oversize taps and matching sump plugs for the common sizes. For us it's a ten min' repair but for dealers it's not an approved Ford method of repair... so they'll try and sell you a new sump and blame it on wear and tear.

To be fair the threads in ally sumps do gradually wear and it's not uncommon to feel uneasy when doing them up on high milage/regularly serviced engines.

David Jenkins - 7/7/14 at 04:20 PM

I'm sure that bi-metal corrosion must play a part as well...

I'm in the "talk to them calmly but assertively" camp, as suggested above. Going in screaming won't help, but being prepared to compromise on the cost of the repair may bring benefits, even if it's some credit for the next service.

Hellfire - 7/7/14 at 05:15 PM

The dealership are adamant they have done nothing wrong and insist that the problem was caused by the sump plug being over-tightened by the previous Ford dealer who carried out the last service. Spoke to Ford UK customer relations but they can't really help because the vehicle is 13 months out of warranty, although they did give me an address to write a letter of complaint if I wasn't happy......

Got the dealership principal involved and the best they will do is provide the labour FOC for fitting the sump and they will provide me with a report and the damaged sump plug to pursue a claim from the previous Ford dealer. I have to pay for the sump pan which is £250, plus the cost of the initial service.

Looks like I've been shafted on this one...........

Phil

neilp1 - 7/7/14 at 07:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
The dealership are adamant they have done nothing wrong and insist that the problem was caused by the sump plug being over-tightened by the previous Ford dealer who carried out the last service. Spoke to Ford UK customer relations but they can't really help because the vehicle is 13 months out of warranty, although they did give me an address to write a letter of complaint if I wasn't happy......

Got the dealership principal involved and the best they will do is provide the labour FOC for fitting the sump and they will provide me with a report and the damaged sump plug to pursue a claim from the previous Ford dealer. I have to pay for the sump pan which is £250, plus the cost of the initial service.

Looks like I've been shafted on this one...........

Phil


They wouldn't be getting my car when it's next due a service. I'd be going else where

ian locostzx9rc2 - 7/7/14 at 07:16 PM

Sump plugs and stripped treads are common I have taps ,heliciols and oversize sump plugs for this reason cannot blame the technician, these things happen a main dealer wouldn't be allowed to do one of these repairs so they have to replace the sump.

RichieW - 7/7/14 at 07:53 PM

Sorry to go slightly off topic, but to the the people who repair sumps in their line of work how do you prevent swarf getting into the oil when you are retapping? I cant see sump removal, retapping and refitting the sump being a ten minute job. Do you do the job with sump in situ and cross fingers?

I do my own oil changes and haven't damaged a thread yet in about 15 years of doing it but I would like to know how the trade approaches it as its the sort of thing that could happen to me.

onenastyviper - 7/7/14 at 07:54 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Hellfire
The dealership are adamant they have done nothing wrong and insist that the problem was caused by the sump plug being over-tightened by the previous Ford dealer who carried out the last service. Spoke to Ford UK customer relations but they can't really help because the vehicle is 13 months out of warranty, although they did give me an address to write a letter of complaint if I wasn't happy......

Got the dealership principal involved and the best they will do is provide the labour FOC for fitting the sump and they will provide me with a report and the damaged sump plug to pursue a claim from the previous Ford dealer. I have to pay for the sump pan which is £250, plus the cost of the initial service.

Looks like I've been shafted on this one...........

Phil


how would they know if it has been overtightened?
they are passing liability onto you, ask for the details of their service agreement and their indemnity insurance...you claim from them they claim from the previous dealer

could shake them into taking avoiding action

NigeEss - 7/7/14 at 08:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by RichieW
Sorry to go slightly off topic, but to the the people who repair sumps in their line of work how do you prevent swarf getting into the oil when you are retapping? I cant see sump removal, retapping and refitting the sump being a ten minute job. Do you do the job with sump in situ and cross fingers?


Swarf tends to stay local as it sticks to the oily area, careful wiping and often a screw driver with a smear of grease on it
removes most of the bits, any bits left over are tiny and of soft metal and will be collected by the filter.

prawnabie - 7/7/14 at 08:09 PM

Phil



They should pick up the cost of either a repair to make good or replace.

If Ford are *ahem* daft enough to design a sump which cannot be repaired so the only alternative is a new sump - and they broke it the dealer should claim the cost of repair from Ford and start a non-conformance against the part for "fit-for-purpose".




Thats the typical narrow-minded view I have to deal with most of the day.

Every time I switch on a light switch or drive my car it wears, does that mean its not fit for purpose? I find the customers I deal with get a lot more help if they approach a problem with an open mind, looking a both sides of the story rather that spout off about what they have read of seen on watchdog.

RichieW - 7/7/14 at 08:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by NigeEss
quote:
Originally posted by RichieW
Sorry to go slightly off topic, but to the the people who repair sumps in their line of work how do you prevent swarf getting into the oil when you are retapping? I cant see sump removal, retapping and refitting the sump being a ten minute job. Do you do the job with sump in situ and cross fingers?


Swarf tends to stay local as it sticks to the oily area, careful wiping and often a screw driver with a smear of grease on it
removes most of the bits, any bits left over are tiny and of soft metal and will be collected by the filter.



Thanks for that NigeEss

austin man - 7/7/14 at 09:18 PM

Phil cant you take the sump to Martin Keenan he would repair it in a flash and you know hes reasonably priced

ste - 8/7/14 at 05:24 AM

If you are out of warranty, why not get one yourself from a scrap yard and have them fit it for you?

SteveWalker - 8/7/14 at 07:56 AM

Main dealers only making "proper" repairs really annoys me. I took my Focus for a replacement alternator under warranty. Replacement alternators were on back order - a five weeks delay - and they would not authorise a courtesy car until I had been without a car for four weeks. I am a contractor, was working 45 miles away and relying upon my car for work and don't get paid unless I am there. Some days of the week I can't borrow my wife's car as she is a community nurse and needs it for work too. My local shop could have had a new alternator, made by the same manufacturer, but without the Ford label on, delivered by 2pm! Totally unacceptable to leave people without their necessary transport for so long simply because it must be supplied through their official supply chain. Oh and when they finally gave me a courtesy car after four weeks, they supplied a four seater - despite me warning them repeatedly that we were a family of five!

[Edited on 8/7/14 by SteveWalker]

onenastyviper - 8/7/14 at 09:36 AM

quote:
Originally posted by prawnabie
Phil


They should pick up the cost of either a repair to make good or replace.

If Ford are *ahem* daft enough to design a sump which cannot be repaired so the only alternative is a new sump - and they broke it the dealer should claim the cost of repair from Ford and start a non-conformance against the part for "fit-for-purpose".




Thats the typical narrow-minded view I have to deal with most of the day.

Every time I switch on a light switch or drive my car it wears, does that mean its not fit for purpose? I find the customers I deal with get a lot more help if they approach a problem with an open mind, looking a both sides of the story rather that spout off about what they have read of seen on watchdog.


Forgive my "narrow minded"ness - (never been called narrow minded before, first time for everything I suppose )

It is quite simple - you take it to the dealer because they are a dealer and you expect a certain level of due care and attention, they should have the necessary skills, training and other systems in place to resolve such eventualities.

Of course, the dealer could equally (and should) carefully explain the situation to the potential customer *prior* to agreeing to the service that the customer will indemnify the dealer from any incidental or accidental damage caused to the vehicle whilst undergoing the service - a bit like the carparks which show the disclaimer against any loss or damage incurred whilst staying there.

Alternatively, the dealer could say nothing and hope nothing bad happens..........

prawnabie - 8/7/14 at 10:06 AM

It is usual pratice for the job sheet that the customer signs, after a damage walkaround has been done, to state that the dealer is not responsible for anything that happens to the car that is out of there control.

Anywork that the dealer does has to be warrantied. The manufacturer will warrant it as long as it is done to there guidelines - this is the reason most people take their cars to a dealer - to get ford (in this case) trained people doing the job how ford intended it to be done.

If the dealer does a temp fix, or anything other than what ford specify, the dealer itself is liable and in the case of an engine sump, I can see why they won't repair it.

Don't get me wrong, I work at a main dealer, and I don't agree with some practices, but if you want a repairer that is flexible in the way repairs are carried out, you really need to be going to an independant garage. With block exemption, there is no reason not to unless it is for warranty work.

mcerd1 - 8/7/14 at 10:14 AM

quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
It is quite simple - you take it to the dealer because they are a dealer and you expect a certain level of due care and attention, they should have the necessary skills, training and other systems in place to resolve such eventualities.

we that's the first big mistake

these days most dealers employ 'mechanics' for the minimum cost and give them the minimum training
so what they get are largely glorified part fitters that do what the computer / service manual says without stopping to think about whats really wrong with the car


the good mechanics tend to be the self employed guys in the little local garage who's business relies on repeat custom (rather than just selling new cars)

but its getting harder to find guys like this now - part of the problem is that being a mechanic is not seen as the best job so 16 year olds with some brains in there heads get told they should be going to uni (probably to study something that you can't get a job in) and the ones who do the apprenticeships tend not to be the sharpest tools in the box.
The good garages I know find it really hard to get anyone that's capable and interested in training to be a good mechanic

stevebubs - 8/7/14 at 01:22 PM

I thought main dealers hired "Technicians" nowadays...

ian locostzx9rc2 - 8/7/14 at 02:10 PM

You cannt blame a technician for stripping a sump plug thread it happens....

mcerd1 - 8/7/14 at 02:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by ian locostzx9rc2
You cannt blame a technician for stripping a sump plug thread it happens....

just to be clear I do accept that these things can happen to anyone
my comments above are just aimed at the main dealers attitude in general.....

they should be able to offer to repair to the sump (with some disclaimers or the repair) just like any other garage would.
the main dealer over the road from me (Vauxhall) does do pattern parts / repair jobs on out of warranty cars if you ask them to - so it is possible....


[Edited on 8/7/2014 by mcerd1]

Agriv8 - 8/7/14 at 02:52 PM

quote:
Originally posted by stevebubs
I thought main dealers hired "Technicians" nowadays...


Never trust a Technician ( I am one of the computer sort ! ) and I don't trust myself !!!

I don't know if its still the case but Ford staff used to get paid book time.

So if the book time is 1 hour and the take 10 minutes they get paid for the HOUR and the customer gets charged for the hour so every one is quid's in. In my MIND that is going to end up with mistakes made. Good for profit & motivating the staff but crap for the customer.

ATB agriv8

[Edited on 8/7/14 by Agriv8]

prawnabie - 8/7/14 at 04:08 PM

At the place I work at, the technician will get paid the same regardless of them goin a 1 hour job in 3 hours or 10 mins. They will get a bonus on how efficent they are, but it is only paid on how close they are to 100% efficient.

If they do a service in 10 mins they will not get any bonus and the clocking system will highlight there is an issue as soon as they clock off the job.

Hellfire - 8/7/14 at 05:12 PM

Picking the car up tomorrow. They're giving me the original damaged sump and plug and also providing me with a written report, stating why the damage was caused, so that I can pursue this with either the previous dealership that allegedly over-tightened the sump plug, or Ford UK. I think I've got a better chance of getting something out of Ford UK but I'm not holding out much hope........

I understand that these things can easily happen. I've done it before myself. But I don't expect Ford trained technicians on £40 per hour to make simple mistakes like this, unless they've been cutting corners and not working to Fords specifications. Either way, their service sheet will probably state the sump plug was tightened to the correct torque and nobody can prove otherwise.......

I've now got to foot a £250 bill for something that wasn't even remotely my fault.

Phil