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The single seater is dead then...anyone got plans?
dan8400 - 31/3/14 at 09:17 PM

Hi everyone

Due to there being no news for ages about the single seater book I wondered if anyone knew what happened to the project? It was supposed to be very close to completion at several points.

Can anyone shed any light on how and why the project stalled?

Also, are there any plans or drawings of any description that we may get out hands on?

Thanks
Dan

[Edited on 1/4/14 by dan8400]

loggyboy - 31/3/14 at 09:22 PM

Believe the author fell quite ill and wasnt in a position to complete the project or the book.

dan8400 - 31/3/14 at 09:23 PM

That is true but the project then passed to SSC. Don't know after that though

Thanks
Dan

D Beddows - 31/3/14 at 10:19 PM

and they released a video of this driving round a yard:




and the guy looked such a muppet driving it we all laughed - THEN it died and rightfully so in my honest opinion

[Edited on 31/3/14 by D Beddows]

PorkChop - 31/3/14 at 10:48 PM

I can shed some light on the story as I know it...

Andy Hugill of Saturn Sports Cars took over the unfinished project in late summer 2011. I saw the build in August 2011 and it needed an awful lot of work before it was finished (my mate's son was apparently the first person to ever sit in the chassis according to Andy).

By the end of September, the engine was running and progress was being made (I was there when the engine started with a number of other builders). There was a fairly tight deadline to get the car finished IIRC, but by new year 2012 it was done. SSC was in the process of expanding (Nathan Smith had come on board full time) and they had taken up the unit next door to get the car finished. Then Andy decided to close SSC in early 2012 due to health reasons, Nathan set up NTS Engineering from it and went back down to one unit.

When Nathan closed NTS in summer 2012 and sold everything up, I bought some of his stock. I asked him about the single seater, he showed me some mobile phone photos of the finished car and told me that it had gone to Haynes, presumably for them to move onto the next step of producing the book. That's the last I heard of it, both Andy and Nathan have moved on from the Haynes Roadster and sold their cars. I've not heard anything from them for at least 12 months.

dan8400 - 1/4/14 at 06:08 AM

Thank you for the reply, pork chop

I like the look of the car. Obviously it's not finished in that picture. Seemed to have so much potential. And there were an awful lot of people on here and elsewhere that were waiting for the book. Such a shame it seems to have gone

Would be interesting to know how many people had pre ordered from Amazon.

Thanks
Dan

[Edited on 1/4/14 by dan8400]

Mr Whippy - 1/4/14 at 11:42 AM

It is quite amazing that a simple single seater has been such an unsuccessful project I thought it would have more market that the original locost tbh and I can’t say I was ever interested in being able to take a passenger

It would also have been nice to get back to the low cost route again and using donor cars for parts

steve m - 1/4/14 at 12:10 PM

Agree with Mr Whippy

The only thing that would put me off, would be having to put wheelarches over the tyres for road use
as to me that would detract from the single seater race car look

Otherwise, i would make one

Steve

Myke 2463 - 1/4/14 at 12:59 PM

Whippy + 1

New Locost race series ?

GRRR - 1/4/14 at 04:07 PM

What engine and box was it using?

iank - 1/4/14 at 04:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Agree with Mr Whippy

The only thing that would put me off, would be having to put wheelarches over the tyres for road use
as to me that would detract from the single seater race car look

Otherwise, i would make one

Steve


Could always go for the camouflage style as used by Ronart and make them quick release for the track.

mark chandler - 1/4/14 at 04:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by iank
quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Agree with Mr Whippy

The only thing that would put me off, would be having to put wheelarches over the tyres for road use
as to me that would detract from the single seater race car look

Otherwise, i would make one

Steve


Could always go for the camouflage style as used by Ronart and make them quick release for the track.



Now that's a single seater, plenty of xj40's still for pennies as a single donor and you are away..... Thinking if only I had my shed made to hide stuff in.

StevieB - 1/4/14 at 04:47 PM

quote:
Originally posted by steve m
Agree with Mr Whippy

The only thing that would put me off, would be having to put wheelarches over the tyres for road use
as to me that would detract from the single seater race car look

Otherwise, i would make one

Steve


IIRC lotus road registered a single seater in the 60's and used clam shell's over the front wheels which looked quite good IMHO.

dan8400 - 1/4/14 at 04:50 PM

Thank you for the replies so far.

Does anyone have any plans or access to the plans? Sorry to bang on about it but would love to have a go at this.

I know there were third parties making bodywork and suspension components etc. Are these available? Is anyone from the project still involved on here?


Thanks
Dan

[Edited on 1/4/14 by dan8400]

StevieB - 1/4/14 at 05:24 PM

You could always have a look at the terrapin - books and plans still available I think and options for car and bike engines.

dan8400 - 1/4/14 at 05:35 PM

Thanks Stevie b. Any idea where to get plans from? Amazon? I think the author passed away. Didn't people just get them direct from him?

Hope I'm wrong and that I can find some

Thanks
Dan

Sam_68 - 1/4/14 at 06:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by dan8400
Thanks Stevie b. Any idea where to get plans from? Amazon? I think the author passed away. Didn't people just get them direct from him?

Hope I'm wrong and that I can find some

Thanks
Dan


I'm pretty sure you can still get the plans via Allan's son, Darryl Staniforth, but I don't have his contact details to hand. Have a hunt round on the Terrapin forum and I'm sure you'll turn something up:

http://jawfish.proboards.com/

The Terrapin isn't very 'authentic' looking as a 60's single seater though (despite the fact that it is an authentic 60's single seater!), due to it having a transverse mounted Mini engine.

TheGiantTribble - 1/4/14 at 06:13 PM

The plans are still available from A.Staniforths' family who own the rights.

I believe about £80.00

They have a forum here ----> http://jawfish.proboards.com/

Beaten by Sam_68

[Edited on 1/4/14 by TheGiantTribble]

ceebmoj - 1/4/14 at 06:38 PM

quote:
Originally posted by PorkChop
I can shed some light on the story as I know it...

Andy Hugill of Saturn Sports Cars took over the unfinished project in late summer 2011. I saw the build in August 2011 and it needed an awful lot of work before it was finished (my mate's son was apparently the first person to ever sit in the chassis according to Andy).

By the end of September, the engine was running and progress was being made (I was there when the engine started with a number of other builders). There was a fairly tight deadline to get the car finished IIRC, but by new year 2012 it was done. SSC was in the process of expanding (Nathan Smith had come on board full time) and they had taken up the unit next door to get the car finished. Then Andy decided to close SSC in early 2012 due to health reasons, Nathan set up NTS Engineering from it and went back down to one unit.

When Nathan closed NTS in summer 2012 and sold everything up, I bought some of his stock. I asked him about the single seater, he showed me some mobile phone photos of the finished car and told me that it had gone to Haynes, presumably for them to move onto the next step of producing the book. That's the last I heard of it, both Andy and Nathan have moved on from the Haynes Roadster and sold their cars. I've not heard anything from them for at least 12 months.


Nathan was / is a member on hear. After he closed up shop there was a for sale thread on hear where he alluded to the fact that the body work molds where available for swaps if you had the bits he needed to finish his car. I had a bit of a search but cant find the thread in the for sale section at the moment.

big_wasa - 1/4/14 at 06:39 PM

I didn't think the family had any left, the publisher did. Myself and a few others bought some before xmas. He is a member on here as well. I bought the book and the mk1 chassis plans and will get the mk5 plans if and when I have some spare pennies.

"Terrapin_racing" The pricing isn't like Haynes though but with so few copies about its more of an investment.

Only catch is like the Midlana I need to learn to measure out a chassis in imperial.

StevieB - 1/4/14 at 06:45 PM

I've got an original copy of 'high speed, low cost' in pristine condition tucked away. I keep meaning to get a set of plans sorted which I really should do while I can.

D Beddows - 1/4/14 at 07:10 PM

anyone remember the Sprint R? best thing since sliced bread for about 6 months in 2009 until people realised they were crap as a road car and seriously compromised as a track car - just saying like

dan8400 - 1/4/14 at 07:15 PM

I would love one of those!!

PorkChop - 1/4/14 at 07:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by dan8400
Thank you for the replies so far.

Does anyone have any plans or access to the plans? Sorry to bang on about it but would love to have a go at this.

I know there were third parties making bodywork and suspension components etc. Are these available? Is anyone from the project still involved on here?


Thanks
Dan

[Edited on 1/4/14 by dan8400]


The single seater was never marketed, there were never any third party made parts for sale to the masses. 3GE Components made some parts on behalf of Chris Gibbs at the start of the project, but I think that was it. AFAIK, there was only one car, the only people outside of Haynes that I think had the finished set of plans were Andy and Nathan (Chris Gibbs probably has a set as well), there was only one set of finished bodywork moulds to the best of my knowledge. Now, the Haynes Roadster moulds went from Nathan back to Andy for a short while, before they went to Dan Gillham (of Gillham Online), who still has them. I have no idea if the single seater moulds eventually followed suit.

The car was bike powered, but I can't remember exactly what. It was multi donor IIRC.

Both Andy and Nathan are on here and on the Haynes forum, but like I said, they have both sold up and moved onto other things in life.

Doctor Derek Doctors - 1/4/14 at 07:34 PM

Couldn't you just get a Kent Formula Ford for ~£5k and make it road legal? Have a look at that Eco-boost one ford did for some inspiration.

dan8400 - 1/4/14 at 07:51 PM

I really want to build my own. Not sure making a formula car road legal would be easy?

It was seeing the Eco boost FF1 that got me interested in a single again.

Might just have a bash and see how I go.

How hard can it be?! ; )

Thanks
Dan

[Edited on 1/4/14 by dan8400]

coyoteboy - 1/4/14 at 08:23 PM

Biggest challenges will be the simple things like light positions, mirrors etc.

Doctor Derek Doctors - 2/4/14 at 09:50 AM

quote:
Originally posted by dan8400
I really want to build my own. Not sure making a formula car road legal would be easy?

It was seeing the Eco boost FF1 that got me interested in a single again.

Might just have a bash and see how I go.

How hard can it be?! ; )

Thanks
Dan

[Edited on 1/4/14 by dan8400]


It would be a huge amount easier than building a car from scratch AND then making that road legal. It's only adding bits in the correct position, the actual car is already done. It would also have the advantage of already having well sorted chassis suspension and running gear probably done by a company like Reynard/Lola etc and readily available parts. I'm always quite surprised that more people don't do it.

Sam_68 - 2/4/14 at 06:45 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek DoctorsIt would also have the advantage of already having well sorted chassis suspension and running gear probably done by a company like Reynard/Lola etc and readily available parts.


Well sorted to work with 40mm ground clearance and rock-hard suspension on smooth tracks, components (Rose joints, particularly) that are lifed in hundreds of miles, and tyres with different characteristics, perhaps!

From my experience (admittedly limited, but 100% more than most people can claim), I would say that:

a) Genuine race cars (a converted Mallock in my case) are pretty horrible, nerve-wracking devices to drive on the public road. It's not just the suspension; it's the rigid-mounted engines, noisy, clonky, straight-cut and dog-engagement gearboxes, and often very restricted turning circles, amongst other issues.

b) Converting a modern race car pushrod suspension to work sensibly on the road is not quite as straightforward as you might expect. Basically, to get the range of wheel movement you need for the road to work with the limited damper stroke available in a typical, very tightly-packaged race car arrangement, you need to alter the rocker leverage ratios unfavourably. And that's before you start relocating the accurately-jigged suspension pickups (which the chassis has been very carefully triangulated around, of course!) and steering rack height to give sufficient ground clearance not to scrape on every dropped kerb and manhole cover without completely f***ing up the intended geometry. It's very easy to turn a well-sorted package into a completely unsorted one.

quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
I'm always quite surprised that more people don't do it.


I'm not.

We all like to talk about 'race cars for the road', but the reality isn't quite as glamorous as the daydream, I fear!

Admittedly, the Haynes Single Seater would have probably ended up being as half-arsed and compromised a design as the original Locost, but on paper, at least, it did offer the opportunity to design-out many of the issues that make a genuine race car so unfriendly and impractical. The '60's style helps, of course, since at least the originals were designed to work with sensible ground clearances, much softer spring rates and less constricted ergonomics than modern racers use.