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Author: Subject: SPIRE GTR mid engine options and opinions please
H7ERO

posted on 28/11/11 at 09:08 PM Reply With Quote
SPIRE GTR mid engine options and opinions please

Im new to kit cars always been interested and bought magazines gone to shows etc, but never taken the plunge!
Iv done a lot of engine conversions in road cars, and after 10 years of road cars the time was right!

I still took a short cut and bought a ready built Spire GTR . .

Now I once built a bike engined powered suzuki cappuccino, admitidly I didnt work through all the problems, but after the few times i did drive it i just felt it wasnt for me

So out with the zx12R engine and in with some sort of car engine and id like your oppinions and experiences please!

heres the lineup of shortlisted engines:

(did i mention i like toyota?)

4AGEU 20v blacktop 4 throttle 165bhp 120kg corolla levin trueno

2zzGE 1.8 VVTLI 190bhp 115kg (all alloy) celica 190

1UZFE Lexus V8 all alloy 175kg 260 bhp

Most proabbly all mounted to an audi transaxle

Now do you think the V8 is just too heavy and torquey and would ruin the feel of the car on track? any experiences here?

Why would someone choose a 1.6 engine over a 1.8?

Should one not get too caught up in power/ weight / weight distrabition etc and just concentrate on building your own fantasy?

This is a trackday toy for me, Im an engineer by trade and love crunching the numbers, but thats not all that makes a great car, my greatest creations have been those which capture the imagination and relise your visions (even if they are insane!)

Any input would be apreciated, especially from those who have changed from CEC to BEC or vise versa, and those who run large heavy engine like the V8
and heres a pic:

the engine bay:

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austin man

posted on 28/11/11 at 09:28 PM Reply With Quote
why not consider the audi / vw 1.8 turbo as fitted to the TT, VW Golf GTI, Passat should fit the audi transaxle. The TT made 225 bhp the engine will make circa 300bhp without much spend bigger turbo, intercooler etc. My 1.8 was doing around 195 BHP only real weaknes was the waterpump replacements are better items other known problems are coil packs again new items are better than the originals.





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will121

posted on 28/11/11 at 09:28 PM Reply With Quote
ive no direct input, but i would speak to spire to see what they say, some time ago when i was looking at them they had round the shows a renault 21 turbo/gearbox one dont know how it differed or really how easy to retro fit,
another option is to sell what you have complete and then look for a CEC

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scootz

posted on 28/11/11 at 09:30 PM Reply With Quote
Audi Turbo lump on an Audi Transaxle! Not the lightest combo, but loads of power, relatively cheap and super-simple!





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Russell

posted on 28/11/11 at 09:32 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Audi Turbo lump on an Audi Transaxle! Not the lightest combo, but loads of power, relatively cheap and super-simple!


That's what I've got in my Spire! Still work-in-progress but it fits.





When you're chewing on life's gristle, don't grumble, give a whistle...

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ceebmoj

posted on 28/11/11 at 10:24 PM Reply With Quote
How about a mazda rotary or the mazda v6 mated to a transaxle?
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Tris

posted on 28/11/11 at 10:30 PM Reply With Quote
Regards the audi lump, a couple of people are using it although it would require serious re-working of the chassis. I think there's some machining challenges with the engine to make it usable, but don't quote me on that (just remember talking to one spire builder who had been waiting for one part to be made for months to allow him to fit a 1.8T)

Regards a V8 option, you know you want to !!!

http://www.holeshot-racing.co.uk/index.php?page=holeshot-hartley-v8

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tegwin

posted on 28/11/11 at 10:41 PM Reply With Quote
If you get the 1.8T engine from the passat (or a4)..... It comes already bolted to a transaxle....

Ok, so its not as pokey as the 1.8T from the Leon Cupra R or S3.... but im sure a clever chap could deal with that issue...

My Leon Cupra R had 290hp and was a standard engine with some clever remapping





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Lightning

posted on 28/11/11 at 10:57 PM Reply With Quote
4AGEU 20v blacktop 4 throttle 165bhp 120kg corolla levin trueno

2zzGE 1.8 VVTLI 190bhp 115kg (all alloy) celica 190

1UZFE Lexus V8 all alloy 175kg 260 bhp

Most proabbly all mounted to an audi transaxle

-----------------------------------------------------------------

You'll never get all that in there , just choose one ......................(tumble weed passes by)

Welcome

I have a bike engine in mine too





Steve

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daniel mason

posted on 28/11/11 at 11:02 PM Reply With Quote
I think I'd opt for a high revving 4 pot like civic type R! Not sure how easy it is but I know of several lotus elise using these motors. They are a great engine, but I am biased towards Honda lumps. Keep us updated with your progress!
Tend to agree with other posts though as buying a bec, and doing a conversion will be very expensive compared to selling your bec and buying a cec.






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ceebmoj

posted on 28/11/11 at 11:22 PM Reply With Quote
how mutch does the civic type r engine and box weigh?
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bi22le

posted on 28/11/11 at 11:25 PM Reply With Quote
I have a 4age 20v blacktop which is alot of fun. Its stock so only 150bhp.

Once i get more money and am happy with the car setup i will have a hard think about superchargers.
Nice progressive power and a good power to weight. i think an eaton M45 from mini coopers works and are cheap.





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H7ERO

posted on 28/11/11 at 11:32 PM Reply With Quote
Im sorry to all the audi men out there, I just cant do it! it would be super simple, but I have no interest in audi things, actually only a negative interest . . apart from their V8s which also bolt to that transaxle . .

Iv made gearbox adaptor plates befor and have a lot of knowledge about the lexus V8, my road car has a 400bhp supercharged one in it and i really like it, when mated to a manual box they rev very fast and hard! and sound sexual!

Hondas spin the wrong way but very nice engines . .although chech the specs on the 2zzge . .also very sexy for a 4 pot

I think the 4 pots do take some cutting and a bashing to fit under the clamshell, and i know the audi instalations have been very tight in the spire!

Tris . . I called you for your car but was too late! and i think iv already undone some of your good work on this one!

im glad this thread has already found two other spire owner/builders! . . what do you think? V8 will it suit the chassis? iv never actually drive a spire yet

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H7ERO

posted on 28/11/11 at 11:43 PM Reply With Quote
heres a pic of my current V8 . . .i think it would look and sit quite nice in there!


B22LE . . I would think hard befor fitting a charger to your 20v, Iv built cars with the 4agze variant and 20v variant and they are very very different to each other you might lose a lot of the sparkle in your engine down that route, just make sure u try and test drive one befor you do it so your sure

Im generally not really after turbo charging this car, I dont want the extra sytems onboard ( intercooler, turbo oil feed etc)

I did consider the starlet turbo engine, its makes a very high specific power output relativly easilly and is the usual toyota bullet proof,

I was also interested in the aygo /107/ 3cyl 1l lump, that is the lightest production engine about at 67kg, turbocharging that would be nice with a nice thrum!

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H7ERO

posted on 29/11/11 at 01:01 AM Reply With Quote
If i win on the premium bonds at the end of the month il be calling holeshot racing for sure!, and then quaife for a sequential transaxle

[Edited on 29/11/11 by H7ERO]

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daniel mason

posted on 29/11/11 at 09:58 AM Reply With Quote
Hondas don't spin the wrong way.well not all Of them. The s2000 which I have spins correct way but am sure the type R, spins the wrong way but can be used as a mid engined using gearbox etc. Many lotus elise use this setup






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H7ERO

posted on 29/11/11 at 10:28 AM Reply With Quote
yes the s2k lump would be my only option , the spire wont accomodate a transverse mid engine set up as would have been used in lotus atoms etc, which makes use of the honda FWD gearbox,

I could turn my transaxle upside down . . .but asside from all that I like toyotas too much to use a honda engine

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Russell

posted on 29/11/11 at 12:09 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by H7ERO




You wanna get some spare wheels and tyres for that





When you're chewing on life's gristle, don't grumble, give a whistle...

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austin man

posted on 29/11/11 at 09:59 PM Reply With Quote
How about a Duratec bolted to the transaxle





Life is like a bowl of fruit, funny how all the weird looking ones are left alone

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clairetoo

posted on 29/11/11 at 10:06 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ceebmoj
How about a mazda rotary or the mazda v6 mated to a transaxle?

Now theres a thought





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H7ERO

posted on 29/11/11 at 10:22 PM Reply With Quote
Now guys guys and girls. . . . . Your missing the point here I just want to know what you think about the dynamic effects of fitting a heavier engine or if anyone has a heavy engine in their lightish car and how they feel about it.

I would never ever use a mazda v6 over a lexus v8 and id die befor i even let a ford engine in the same garage
I dont need engine ideas it can only be toyota. . . I had a vision. Last week

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mark.s

posted on 29/11/11 at 10:34 PM Reply With Quote
got to ask....

why are you taking the 12 out ?

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daniel mason

posted on 29/11/11 at 11:06 PM Reply With Quote
You've probably alienated about half this forum by slagging off the ford, lol!
The duratec will almost certainly be lighter,just as reliable and has potential for big power, but that's your choice. If I was doing one, i'd consider it as it's going in The new mid engined caterham and they seem to know their stuff?






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H7ERO

posted on 29/11/11 at 11:53 PM Reply With Quote
Well ford v toyota is not really much of a debate in my book lol and I could argue lotus went with the toyota lump and the ford lump increases caterhams profit margins! BUT i dont want to get off topic here!

ZX12 just had to come out. . .Iv got a superbike and im happy with that sort of engine in that, and lots of other reasons which iv seen endlessly debated befor on this and other forums, BEC is just not for me this time round.

Iv had my vision of a toyota v8 powered LMP pastische dream fantasy toy, and just want to see if any one has any experience of a similar contraption?

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Neville Jones

posted on 30/11/11 at 11:18 AM Reply With Quote
A 4.2 Audi, with a cam change and throttle bodies, and open tubular exhaust is an awesome lightweight engine. 600hp

Thye dynamic changes with the extra weight behind the driver, by switching from a bec to car engine, will be felt in cornering. If set up properly, the car will have marginally better grip, until it breaks away with little notice, and usually unrecoverable. The rear bec should be a little better in behaviour, due to less weight and better distribution.

Cheers,
Nev.

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