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Author: Subject: Inspiration to build a Vectis?
incony

posted on 21/7/13 at 07:08 AM Reply With Quote
Inspiration to build a Vectis?

Hi folks,

First Post... i`m a newbie..

Incony owns two road legal and one sorn MGF`s, one is a british racing green "Freestyle" the other two trophy blue "Trophy 160"

ive been looking at the Vectis, because A: i love to drive my MGF`s.. they are a unique car...something special - i think.
B: The Vectis, uses the major mechanical parts from the MGF, and i have a complete 160 sitting doing nowt.. I love the construction, of the Vectis... the idea of rust relegation using non rustable body...

I have a problem, in that i would want a Vectis that gave me at least the same road going comfort as the MGF`s can..

so, i would want either a soft top, or a targa top.. and a "proper" windscreen.. and some kind of up down door glass...

i also like the F`s 16 inch wheels on low profile tyres.. My Trophy is on 215/40 16 `s... all four wheels..

i would like to use the 160 engine i have..


does that idea mean i should not venture the Vectis road?


ok.. i know such additions add weight.. but i am not going track racing...

anyone got a Vectis that has tried the windscreen route, and different wheels n tyres?

here is a link to the MGF forum, where i discuss this and have added pics...


http://forums.mg-rover.org/showthread.php?t=512866&highlight=Vectis

and this is my premise... it shows the original screen line and the idea for new..






[Edited on 21/7/13 by incony]

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jeffw

posted on 21/7/13 at 07:19 AM Reply With Quote
If you want the creature comforts you describe then I wouldn't bother with a Sylva. The whole point is that you take the engine and transmission from a MGF and ditch the lardy, rusty bits and end up with a decent kit car, not a MGF with no rust.

And no, I don't like what you have done with the photoshop. Reading the thread on the MG website you must remember that the roll over bars are there for a reason, making them shorter makes them a waste of time.

[Edited on 21/7/13 by jeffw]






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incony

posted on 21/7/13 at 07:40 AM Reply With Quote
thanks jeff...

a full screen is possible, and not wanting to be hit by a stone at 70 mph isnt lardy ... i think.. i was a biker once .. i know..

if the top is removable.. then it offers the best compromise..

i know... that most folks here, just want weight reduction and power increase.. in which case one could argue dont build a kit car get a motorbike...

The addition of a full screen and a specifically made targa or soft top, will add weight... its how much for what gain, is the decider...

ive no wish to have to wear a bike helmet or goggles in a car...

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Jenko

posted on 21/7/13 at 07:50 AM Reply With Quote
Without wanting to put you off (I'm building a j15 and love it)....it sounds like you are looking for something different than a vectis...the build cost will still be be around 10k (if you are careful), and looking at what you want why not buy a lotus Elise for 2k less.

16 inch wheels will not fit without cutting some body work.





MY BLOG - http://westfieldv8.blogspot.co.uk/

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theprisioner

posted on 21/7/13 at 08:56 AM Reply With Quote
+ 1 for Jenko

The J15 is a track and road car, I can see a case for a full windscreen although I doubt I will fit one now that I have an aero screen + wind deflector. Creature comforts it has not and it weighs 625kg so the iva man tells me. Adding all that mgf crap does not sound like a good idea to me.





http://sylvabuild.blogspot.com/

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incony

posted on 21/7/13 at 09:12 AM Reply With Quote
Jenko, thanks, you are not putting me off, its the whole reason to post.. i seek informed knowledge.. since i am biased, simply because i see things in the Vectis i really like...
i look to sway my bias one way or the other, by asking questions..

yes.. ive considered the Elise.. it too follows the road i seek.. and ive seen some early versions going for 7K

that cost though is all up front, not over time... i.e i must use the 7K to 10K all at once... not over time..

and i have a Trophy 160 - complete, that i could rebuild too.. or use to make something else.. i have lots of options..



The wheels... hmm.. the reason i would like to use the wheels is that i have some...both the F Freestyle and the early Trophy... full sets.. and i like the tyre profile.. and the tyres..

so changing the bodywork would be a major change.. not in the cars design.. even though its a kit..

i guess then ive no feedback yet on the tyres and wheels that folks use on the Vectis.. to get an idea...

in August.. ive some holiday.. and i think i need to talk to Jeremy, and try the Vectis..

ive not considered the 15 inch wheels.. they are cheap enough to get... but the 160 F went 16`s for a good reason..

it also comes down to correct use of unsprung weight... so.. until i know and figure out what the consequence of using 15 inch wheels might be... getting feedback like yours is valuable..

Prisoner? MGF Crap? ok.. tell Jeremy that...


[Edited on 21/7/13 by incony]

[Edited on 21/7/13 by incony]

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JC

posted on 21/7/13 at 09:52 AM Reply With Quote
If you want the creature comforts etc., why not look at the de haviLland Ferrari dino thingy? That uses a complete MGF!
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stevebubs

posted on 21/7/13 at 10:11 AM Reply With Quote
Full screen option already exists....


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incony

posted on 21/7/13 at 10:20 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by stevebubs
Full screen option already exists....




yes steve, its why i am interested in it... ive spoken with Jeremy, before i came here, and looked at what was possible..

JC do you have a link addy? i would like to see it..

its the idea of using the MGF components that i want..

but more important to me is the "Britishness" of the Vectis i like... and using parts from a car built in the uk, by MGF as it was... back then..


[Edited on 21/7/13 by incony]

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Jenko

posted on 21/7/13 at 06:23 PM Reply With Quote
I think for wheels, 13" are no doubt most suited ( performance wise) to the light weight j15....that's not to say the 15's and 16's don't look good. The problem is you are forced to put on low profile tyres. And generally a 45 section true is not as forgiving as a 60.....like I said, no issues with the figment of 15's with 195 50 tyres, but don't for one second think bigger and more low profile tyres will help the handling of he car.

Many j15 builders end up with 14 inch as these are a good compromise between looks and performance........





MY BLOG - http://westfieldv8.blogspot.co.uk/

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theprisioner

posted on 21/7/13 at 06:51 PM Reply With Quote
Key question: How many orders does he have for the Vectus I would be interested to know?





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incony

posted on 21/7/13 at 08:42 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jenko
I think for wheels, 13" are no doubt most suited ( performance wise) to the light weight j15....that's not to say the 15's and 16's don't look good. The problem is you are forced to put on low profile tyres. And generally a 45 section true is not as forgiving as a 60.....like I said, no issues with the figment of 15's with 195 50 tyres, but don't for one second think bigger and more low profile tyres will help the handling of he car.

Many j15 builders end up with 14 inch as these are a good compromise between looks and performance........


Thanks Jenko. interesting reply... 13 inch wheels.. is that down to unsprung weight? what profile tyres? and why ? front different to back?

i am obviously keen on looks.. yet.. to know that what one is rolling on is the best thing.. is important.. - i think.

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Jenko

posted on 21/7/13 at 09:31 PM Reply With Quote
Unsprung weight is a big factor, also the light weight nature of these sort of cars means getting heat into big low profile tyres can be an issue. Another consideration should be engine power, for 200 plus bhp then a rear 205 section may offer more traction, but for around 150bhp then a 185-195 should be ok. Again, I want to be clear, im not an expert and don't profess to be, and my school of thought comes from track day / race cars I've seen, and the difference in performance I experienced when I changed from heavyish wheels to some lightweight cxrs on my Westfield. The car had much more feel.

That said, for road use, the 15s would of course be fine and look great as they fill the arches nicely.....there is also clearence issues with the rear calipers on the smaller 13inch wheels that needs sorting..............for me given a choice, 185/60/13 front, and 205/60/13 rear.....both on 6inch rims





MY BLOG - http://westfieldv8.blogspot.co.uk/

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theprisioner

posted on 21/7/13 at 10:49 PM Reply With Quote
I had a lot of discussion with Jeremy when building my J15 about wheel sizes, clearances and rear brake callipers. At that time the choice of 13" wheels required a different calliper ( I still don't know which one ). 14" wheels required ground down cooling fins on the Passat calliper and 15" wheels fitted with the known handbrake and banjo issues. If you go 13" on a J15 then, I get the feeling (reading between the lines), you have to pass IVA first on a 185/55/15 then change wheel/tyre/calliper size to suit.

The limiting factor always being the rear tub and calliper clearance dimensions.

For the Vectus then I assume the geometry of the MGF dictates wheel size to some extent.





http://sylvabuild.blogspot.com/

http://austin7special.blogspot.co.uk/

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JC

posted on 22/7/13 at 01:06 AM Reply With Quote
Your wish is my command
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incony

posted on 22/7/13 at 04:46 AM Reply With Quote
Thanks JC...

i will study it, but my bias is toward an open top convertible..

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jeffw

posted on 22/7/13 at 05:23 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by incony
thanks jeff...

a full screen is possible, and not wanting to be hit by a stone at 70 mph isnt lardy ... i think.. i was a biker once .. i know..

if the top is removable.. then it offers the best compromise..

i know... that most folks here, just want weight reduction and power increase.. in which case one could argue dont build a kit car get a motorbike...

The addition of a full screen and a specifically made targa or soft top, will add weight... its how much for what gain, is the decider...

ive no wish to have to wear a bike helmet or goggles in a car...


I was a biker for many years (didn't pass my car test till I was 28) and I 'know' as well. Which is why I wear a Arai crash helmet when I take my Phoenix out.

There is nothing to stop you having a Half-hood made for it (like Soft bits for sevens www.softbitsforsevens.co.uk) which would give you some water resistance and comfort.






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Paul AS

posted on 22/7/13 at 02:13 PM Reply With Quote
As the owner of a completed "road" J15, I completely get you wanting to make your car as practical and day to day friendly as possible.

There are, as you have already worked out, a number of challenges to doing this. Personally i don't see an issue with the MGF running gear. Yes its a bit heavier, but you're talking about building a road car. It won't win races or sprints with extra lardiness, but thats not waht you are trying to do - horses for courses.

It would still be a lot quicker and handle better than the vast majority of production cars. On a par with a standard S1 elise i would imagine, looking at the varous stats.

The full screen is a lot more practical from a wind protection point of view, unless you happen to be 6 ft or taller, in which case you look straight at the top screen surround. I'm 6'1" and having sat in the registered green Vectis can vouch for this.

To change this you would have to stand the screen surround on a plinth to raise it up. What would it look like? who knows.

With a full screen and a full width roll bar, you can certainly fasten a "bikini" top to keep the sun and some rain out and it woul look very similar to your blue mock-up, which to me looks good. It would however be impossible to get in or out ouf with it in place, unless you were a 4'11" contorsionist!

Wind up windows would be a challenge - nothing is impossible - but you would be doing a lot of fabrication yourself, and narrowing the cockpit, as the glass would have to come into the passenger wells. The sills have strengtheners in for side impact protection and location, which would probably be unwise to remove.

Jeremy has been playing with the MGF folding hood frame, cutting and shortening etc, which if he gets it right, might improve access, by "opening the lid".

I do believe that there are only a small number of kit cars that are practical and weather proof. Ultima and Hawk Stratos spring to mind.

Day to day driveable can be achieved in a Vectis for most weather conditions with a waterproof coat and trousers, but I hate to tell you that water is definitely coming in at some point. Security is a total none starter. Soft top plus knife equals hassle, depending on the local populus.

The wind deflecter on my car is about 5cm higher that on the demo and does throw wind over my head, and i can wear a baseball cap at 100mph on private roads and keep it! I have a tonneau cover for discouraging 14 year old racing drivers and rain for when its parked, but for the rest of the time i get wet. I wear a full visor open face helmet on motorway trips for comfort and have covered 2,500 miles in it this summer, since may.

I aplaude your determination, and am sure you can achieve some of what you need, but all of it i'm not sure. The photos of my car are on locostbuilers under the same Paul AS user name if thats of any use to you.

Good Luck

Paul

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nickm

posted on 22/7/13 at 08:07 PM Reply With Quote
Wont the 160 engine drop straight into an Elise ?

Nick M

Just thought i would chuck this in

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Jenko

posted on 22/7/13 at 09:27 PM Reply With Quote
I've already played the Elise card :-)





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incony

posted on 24/7/13 at 07:49 PM Reply With Quote
Paul AS.. thank you for that..

your post sways my bias...

i need the open / soft / targa/ top... i want 16 inch wheels..

i cant tell yet whether the latter is possible... or how much work that would need.. i might settle for 15. but nothing smaller... i would want MGF wheel PCD..

if that cant happen.. then the idea wont go further than this.. for me..

i think the up/down windows are not hard to fabricate... if one doesnt use glass.. unless i could find some that did the job perfectly - i suggest makrolon polycarbonate, since its very strong - and use a counterbalance... then up and down movement is easy.. since the weight is always balanced.. and polycarbonate though a devil to maintain, isnt hard to get. i could make the side windows easily.. and know how to change them easily. since its going to be me, that designed them..

it is the wheels that stop me this mo.. i need to talk to Jeremy i think.. i need to know his why`s and wherefores.. and how the use of the 160 engine fits, or doesn't fit...

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incony

posted on 24/7/13 at 08:07 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by theprisioner
I had a lot of discussion with Jeremy when building my J15 about wheel sizes, clearances and rear brake callipers. At that time the choice of 13" wheels required a different calliper ( I still don't know which one ). 14" wheels required ground down cooling fins on the Passat calliper and 15" wheels fitted with the known handbrake and banjo issues. If you go 13" on a J15 then, I get the feeling (reading between the lines), you have to pass IVA first on a 185/55/15 then change wheel/tyre/calliper size to suit.

The limiting factor always being the rear tub and calliper clearance dimensions.

For the Vectus then I assume the geometry of the MGF dictates wheel size to some extent.



i want to use the Trophy AP calipers.. and that means i need Trophy wheels... i want what is on the MGF, with the Vectis structure and body..

a real plus, would be a design that used ap on the rears too.. but the handbrake would need a lot of thinking out..

It is why the wheels are my stumbling block this mo...

if i cant use the wheels, i cant use the ap calipers.. both of which i have.. but to buy specific for another wheel size and pcd.. is not locost...






[Edited on 24/7/13 by incony]

[Edited on 24/7/13 by incony]

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theprisioner

posted on 24/7/13 at 08:31 PM Reply With Quote
I have looked at hacking the rear tub to give me more wheel choices for track days. Does not look that difficult. Jeremy gave me the RAL code and I ordered some Gelcoat of the correct colour match. I have been experimenting on engineering damage so far and have discovered Gelcoat is easy and fibre glass modifications/repairs are just as easy (just add Gelcoat). I want to fit 205/50/15 mediums on the the rear with 7J x 15" rims. I bought them for my westfield so I want both cars to take them. My offside clearance is not currently big enough (it soon will be).

I found an ace application on line you may find useful:


http://www.jonathanrowny.com/page/offset-calculator

The data I used other than the standard wheel and tyre stuff is Inner Offset/Inset = 138mm and the Poke/Outer offset is 50mm. In order to get the wheels I already had lying about, with 35mm offset, to fit, was by using 24mm spacers on the rear (I do not know why these spacers are necessary, it is not indicated in the build manual, but they are absolutely necessary on my build). The ideal offset (see on line calculator) with the spacers on the rear is 40mm, front and back, and happens to be the offset that Jeremy recommends.





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nickm

posted on 25/7/13 at 07:06 PM Reply With Quote
Hi
A few thoughts reference some of what you are asking, i am an keen amatuer builder who has built one car to see whether i could do it and am now building exactly what i want a J15
There is very little info on the Vectis as there is only one in existence and only a very few J15s that are finished, if you look up J15 and its sister car the Sylva Riot you will get some handling reports.
Be careful cutting hoops down etc but a full roll bar may be lower anyway as it doesnt have that peak ? your head needs to be below a line from the top of rollbar to front chassis bar for safety.
I can appreciate the usability for the weather side of things that is why Jeremy put the windscreen on, but if you drive this type of car in bad weather what is a potential supercar becomes handicapped compared with "normal cars" because it has no 4wd, traction control,ABS,ESP etc so you may find you will save it for the dry days anyway.
The Tiger i had before was without a screen as it helped to remind that i was on a public road and to screw the nut !
I have 15" wheels and they are a tight fit.
The AP calipers how are they going to work effiency wise without a servo ? The back should have less of the braking force than the front. Does the Vectis have the bias bar ?
The nearer you stay to Jeremys spec the easier it will be to build
His Red J15 demonstrator runs a 1.6 MG engine although he designed the Riot J15 for the Sigma SE variants
How about the R1ot with the bike R1 engine in ?
Just a few thoughts that probably ask more than they answer !

Nick M

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incony

posted on 25/7/13 at 10:37 PM Reply With Quote
i only muse on ap calipers for rear brakes... its a monumental task to redesign brake systems.. i just like the ap 4 pot calipers.. and using them on the front... method wise, is clear cut and known.. and yes.. ap calipers need a servo..

you sense nickm, that nothing is as simple as a photo of an mgf and vectis side by side...
i know that too.

its not that i am looking for easy to build... its that given the means, it can be..

so.. given all the knowledge that exists in the mgf.. then how does one use it in a car that uses the core parts from start?

is the Vectis a true "use what you have" or really "use some of what you have, buy the rest" ?

there comes a point that what you have, is better than what you must buy, since you have it...

isnt that what locost means?

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