loggyboy
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 11:55 AM |
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IVA Rear Fog light new RS/notes
Theres been a few discussions relating to the new note (4) in the rear fog light section of the latest IVA Manual.
4. The rear fog lamp(s) must only illuminate when dipped beam, main beam or
front fog lamps are lit (See Notes 3 & 4)
Note 4: Either of the following applies:
1) The rear fog lamp(s) may continue to operate until the position lamps
are switched off, and the rear fog lamp(s) must then remain off until
deliberately switched on again or,
2) An audible warning, additional to the mandatory tell-tale light, must be
activated if the ignition is switched off or the ignition key is withdrawn
and the driver's door is opened, whether the lamps in (RS4) are on or off,
whilst the rear fog lamp switch is in the "on" position.
The basics of this is that you either need slightly more complex wiring to ensure that either:
When the fog is on and the position/dipped/main/front etc lights are switched off, the fog light must not relight when the position/dipped/mains/front
fogs lights are turned back on.
OR
You have a buzzer that warns the driver the fog light switch is still on when he switches the car off. (note this must warn that the fog SWITCH
is still on, as if the dipped lights have already been switch off, the light it self will not be on)
The premise being is that (stupid) people often forget to turn their fogs off and this is one way to reduce this.
There was mention that these new notes only came in to effect when the rear fog could be activated by the sidelight/front fog combination, however I
have recieved an email from VOSA stating: The notes 3 and 4 in this section of the manual refer specifically to rear fog lamp operation, not the
operation of the switching arrangement.,
Therefore (IMO) the notes do apply to all rear fogs.
Mistral Motorsport
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Charlie_Zetec
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 03:48 PM |
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As with all these things, isn't it open to interpretation by the tester?
The way you've worded it and approached suggests you'd need some sort of latching relay on a switch for the rear fog light, which then
disengages or resets when the dipped/main lights are turned off.
But, and I mean BUT, the way you could look at it is that the rear fog lights can only be switched on or off when the dipped/main beams are on. The
switch from the main lights essentially controls the fog light then, and unless you manually turn them on, the fog light remains off. This could be
covered by the "the fog lamp must remain off until it is switched on again" - which you are doing with the main beam switch.
I would suggest that the second note is mostly irrelevant as you could interpret it as the '7' has no doors, so anything that requires
buzzers on drivers' door does not apply.
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity!
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loggyboy
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 03:58 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Zetec
As with all these things, isn't it open to interpretation by the tester?
The way you've worded it and approached suggests you'd need some sort of latching relay on a switch for the rear fog light, which then
disengages or resets when the dipped/main lights are turned off.
But, and I mean BUT, the way you could look at it is that the rear fog lights can only be switched on or off when the dipped/main beams are on. The
switch from the main lights essentially controls the fog light then, and unless you manually turn them on, the fog light remains off. This could be
covered by the "the fog lamp must remain off until it is switched on again" - which you are doing with the main beam switch.
I would suggest that the second note is mostly irrelevant as you could interpret it as the '7' has no doors, so anything that requires
buzzers on drivers' door does not apply.
The rear fog has ALWAYS been controlled by the dipped or mains in addition to its own switch, (as listed in RS4 which hasnt changed since the first
version of the manual). If that was the interpreation, the new note would not be necessary. You also missed out the word dilberately from the
'turned on again' note. Again, pointing to the fact the fog light must be deliberatley turned on, not inadvertently because the dipped
lights were turned back on.
The buzzer note contains an 'or', which covers cars with out doors 'An audible warning, additional to the mandatory tell-tale
light, must be activated if the ignition is switched off OR.... etc etc
[Edited on 14-8-13 by loggyboy]
Mistral Motorsport
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Charlie_Zetec
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 04:12 PM |
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Sorry if I was sounding pernickety, it wasn't my intention. But I was wondering, how many production cars run in the same way with the fog
staying off after the side/main lights have been switched off?
Please bear in mind that I run a Defender as my daily car, and SWMBO has an '04 Merc C class coupe, neither of which run in the new way.
Just means my nice illuminated savage switch will have to work in a new-fandangled way now, not as I had originally intended! Anyone gone through IVA
since these revisions that could comment on their setup or experience?
Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity!
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loggyboy
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 04:20 PM |
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Its ok, its always good to hear other peoples interpretations and ideas, as its quite plausable the tester may have read it the same way!
My renaults all work in this way (2002 clio and 2007 megane), they have a momentary switch for both front and rear fogs that automatically switch off
when the ign is reset.
Mistral Motorsport
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 04:38 PM |
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I have to say I agree entirley with Loggy boy and for the cost of a relay and buzzer £5, I intend to fit one its not worth failing IVA for such a
small cost.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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theduck
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 05:49 PM |
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Anyone care to share a wiring diagram for the buzzer setup. Something else I need to add...
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loggyboy
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 06:30 PM |
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Fairly simple, double pole switch for fog light, one to fog (supply from dipped supply), the other fed from perm power, on to an earth that is
switched via relay to be on when the ignition is off.
Mistral Motorsport
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 07:33 PM |
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Wire a relay coil one side to earth the other side to a switched live, so whenever ignition is on the relay is energised.
Using a normally closed contact on the relay wire one side to a buzzer connect other side of buzzer to earth.
Other side of relay contact connects to normally open pole on fog light switch fed from permanent supply.
Connected like this if the fog light switch is on and the ignition key is out the buzzer will buzz reminding you to turn it off when you remove the
key irrespective of whether lights are on or off.
If its wired through the lighting circuit if the lights are off when the key is removed the buzzer will not buzz when fog light is left on.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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Toprivetguns
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 08:13 PM |
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So a big red light with the FOG sign is not sufficient?
Thanks for this, very close to IVA.
Cheers
Only drive as fast as your angel can fly... !
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Andy S
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 08:40 PM |
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If like on our Fury buyild you have a switch already in the dash and it is not a double pole switch - many are not, then you need to use two
relays.
The fog light switch has a permanent live to it that switches a relay coil that has the supply from the main lights on one side of a N/O contact and
the fog light on the other contact.
The permanent live out of the fog light switch also goes to the buzzer relay as described above
Switched Ignition live to the relay coil - Feed from the fog light switch to one side of NC contact and buzzer on the other.
Maplin costs should about £10 for two relays and a buzzer .
Simple enough
Andrew
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rdodger
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| posted on 14/8/13 at 09:19 PM |
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I passed IVA a few weeks ago shortly after the revision in the manual.
I specifically asked the tester about the buzzer etc.
He pointed at the manual and said it only applies if you have the ability to turn the fog light on with the side lights.
If it's wired to dipped/main beam nothing has changed. No requirement to have a buzzer or anything else.
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snapper
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| posted on 15/8/13 at 05:47 AM |
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Can we see notes 3&4 together
We can only see note 4 and sub sections
I eat to survive
I drink to forget
I breath to pi55 my ex wife off (and now my ex partner)
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FEZ1025
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| posted on 15/8/13 at 06:47 AM |
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Would somebody be willing to put together a simplified diagram for a buzzer system?
Alan...
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loggyboy
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| posted on 15/8/13 at 08:01 AM |
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I would try something like this
Mistral Motorsport
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 15/8/13 at 08:34 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Charlie_Zetec
Sorry if I was sounding pernickety, it wasn't my intention. But I was wondering, how many production cars run in the same way with the fog
staying off after the side/main lights have been switched off?
My Yaris's light switch arrangement means that you can't leave the fogs on if you turn the lights off - twisting the lights to off pushes
the fog light switch back to off. My previous car was a Focus, and that had a similar idea - you can't put the fogs on until the light switch
was in a certain position, and you can't turn the lights off until you reset the fogs. My daughter's Golf was similar. I had a car a
while ago where you put the fogs on and off with a push button, which was reset when the iginition was turned off.
So - nothing new in the production car world.
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loggyboy
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| posted on 15/8/13 at 06:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by snapper
Can we see notes 3&4 together
We can only see note 4 and sub sections
Note 3: front fog lamps may be illuminated with the side lamps only.
Note 4: Either of the following applies:
1) The rear fog lamp(s) may continue to operate until the position lamps are switched off, and the rear fog lamp(s) must then remain off until
deliberately switched on again or,
2) An audible warning, additional to the mandatory tell-tale light, must be activated if the ignition is switched off or the ignition key is
withdrawn and the driver's door is opened, whether the lamps in (RS4) are on or off, whilst the rear fog lamp switch is in the "on"
position.
Mistral Motorsport
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theduck
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| posted on 16/8/13 at 07:50 AM |
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They've changed it to with side lamps only?! It was previously must not come on with side lamps? So only on with dipped and main beam?
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loggyboy
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| posted on 16/8/13 at 07:55 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by theduck
They've changed it to with side lamps only?! It was previously must not come on with side lamps? So only on with dipped and main beam?
Its never been sidelights (for IVA, not sure about SVA).
Front fog can come on with sides(positions) lights, and THEN the rear fog can then come on if the front fogs are on, but the rear can not come on with
sides/positions alone.
Mistral Motorsport
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theduck
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| posted on 16/8/13 at 08:10 AM |
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Just realised I misread it. It's front fogs with side lamps only
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turnipfarmer
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 05:41 PM |
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I was confused by the whole Note 4 business, so I sent an email to VOSA for a definitive answer.
Their reply is on page 4 of this Rhocar thread...
http://www.rhocar.org/index.php?showtopic=37712&st=45
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Dave Bailey
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 08:21 PM |
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I would check with your IVA centre because I have just been and had my test and was told that the fog light requirement had been challenged by the
testers themselves because they think that it isn't reasonable. I have just passed with the old requirement.
Dave B
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Acc8braman
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 08:45 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bailey
I would check with your IVA centre because I have just been and had my test and was told that the fog light requirement had been challenged by the
testers themselves because they think that it isn't reasonable. I have just passed with the old requirement.
Dave B
Excellent news 
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loggyboy
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 08:59 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Acc8braman
quote:
Originally posted by Dave Bailey
I would check with your IVA centre because I have just been and had my test and was told that the fog light requirement had been challenged by the
testers themselves because they think that it isn't reasonable. I have just passed with the old requirement.
Dave B
Excellent news
Sounds sensible, but if its still in the manual then it only takes one tester to spoil your day. Until a revised manual is issued I wouldnt risk a £90
restest for sake of £5 of relays and a buzzer or similar.
Mistral Motorsport
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Dave Bailey
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| posted on 8/10/13 at 09:03 PM |
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Call them in advance and ask... I did!
Dave B
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