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Author: Subject: Saw tooth tyre wear (VAG related)
nick205

posted on 25/5/12 at 09:41 PM Reply With Quote
Saw tooth tyre wear (VAG related)

Has anyone come across abnormal rear tyre wear issues on VAG cars.

I bought my 2nd B6 Passat estate last year with 62k miles on it. Front tyre wear was very even with ~4mm left across the width of the budget brand tyres. Rear tyre wear looked even with (what I thought) was ~6mm across the width, again budget tyres.

Having just had the fronts replaced at 75k miles the kwik Fit guy asked me to look at the rear tyres up on the ramp. Both tyres are badly worn on the inside shoulders, almost bald on the very inside. More worrying is the "saw tooth" pattern of wear with even ridges and valleys round the circumference of the tyres. Both tyres are worn exactly the same which to me rules out a major alignment issue.

Now its been highlighted to me I have detected a wheel bearing type drone from the rear too!

The Kwik Fit guy commented it was a common issue with VAG cars and also seen on BMWs and some Fords. He suggested worn shocks and bushes make it worse, but basically an inherent problem with the suspension design.

After a bit of Googling on the VAG forums it appears to be a fairly common problem, particularly prevalent on B6 Passats. VW (as always) seem to be aware of, but denying the issue. Some people suggest certain brands of tyre are more prone than others - heavily directional tyres seem to be the worst.

My local VAG specialist garage (next door to work and a trusted mechanic) have also seen the problem on a number of cars. They suggest the shocks and bushes should be fine at 5 years/75k miles and that the even nature of the wear rules out significant alignment issues. They have offered to look at the car in more detail when it's in for a cam belt change next month, but also recommended taking the issue up with VW Customer Services.


Sorry...longer post than planned!

Has anyone else experienced this issue.....?






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PSpirine

posted on 25/5/12 at 09:48 PM Reply With Quote
I don't suppose the car is still under warranty?

Haven't experienced anything like that with my B5, even with the world's most worn out suspension on it.. But I do over-inflate my tyres. Not suggesting that's a cure to your problem, but underinflation would certainly accelerate any wear on either edge of the tyre. Over-inflating slightly might move the pressure contact patch more towards the centre?

Haven't got much experience of B6's unfortunately - my mate has one on around 70k and he hasn't mentioned anything like this.

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Davg

posted on 25/5/12 at 10:03 PM Reply With Quote
Yep Nick a definite here had same issue with previous co hack. Brand new 06 b6passat estate sport. Could have sworn there was a bearing issue in fact closely considered doing the bloody thing myself. Instead saw sense and hounded dealer. Yep definitely tyre wear cause of noise so when I got to stage of getting fed up with it after tyres wore down a bit just got quick fit to change the tyres. Not to ey when you gotta met the bill yourself. Had the car for 3 years and now replaced unfortunately downsized with a golf with slightly similar issue although not quite as bad as the Passat. Only explanation I could get was related to car not being loaded in the back most of the time.
Cracking car otherwise except for the dealer breaking the handbrake electr actuators when the monkey replaced the rear discs to sting the lease co and gave me it back saying it was fine. Alas they found out to their cost I ain't no monkey!

Cheers
D

[Edited on 25/5/12 by Davg]





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COREdevelopments

posted on 25/5/12 at 10:21 PM Reply With Quote
Your not alone. I see this problem alot. It happens on a variety of cars. Nearly all have been on front wheel drive cars and problem only occurs on rear wheels. mainly inner tread and directionals are more affected. I have my thoughts and do believe it is an allignment issue. The cars that tend to suffer from it, the majority have a trailing arm type beam suspension which is fixed and no adjustment can be made. It even happens to my van which really pees me off.

Hope this helps.

Rob






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ReMan

posted on 25/5/12 at 10:43 PM Reply With Quote
Problem occurs on Saabs, my 9-3.
Blocking I think it is referered to on the Saabs, where the tread blocks are alternatly worn/not worn and causes drumming noise in rear





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owelly

posted on 25/5/12 at 11:52 PM Reply With Quote
Had the same (or similar) problem on my Audi A4. Swapped the rear worn tyres to the front and they soon scrubbed off evenly. The ones I took off the front to swap to the back were non-directional with a basic block design on the edges of the tread and they've been fine and show no irregular wear over the last 6000ish miles.





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coyoteboy

posted on 26/5/12 at 12:18 AM Reply With Quote
I think what you are describing is cupping?

http://www.procarcare.com/includes/content/resourcecenter/encyclopedia/ch25/25readtirewear.html

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britishtrident

posted on 26/5/12 at 06:12 AM Reply With Quote
Funny how Kwiksh*t always say shocks

The saw tooth wear points points to toe-in and camber , after checking the bushes I would check the ride height and consider changing the rear springs.





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Bigboystoys

posted on 26/5/12 at 06:36 AM Reply With Quote
My golf tdi does exactaly the same thing, had alignment checked and no bearing play. Mine wears almost a wave type pattern across the tread
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nick205

posted on 26/5/12 at 07:14 AM Reply With Quote
OK, glad to hear it's a relatively common issue and not just me

The car is out of warranty (57 reg with 75k miles). It's completely standard in terms of suspension, wheels etc. Tyres always inflated to manufacturer specs and adjusted if loading the car up.

[Edited on 26/5/12 by nick205]






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nick205

posted on 26/5/12 at 08:30 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Funny how Kwiksh*t always say shocks

The saw tooth wear points points to toe-in and camber , after checking the bushes I would check the ride height and consider changing the rear springs.



Different sources suggest different causes ranging from worn components (shocks, bushes etc.), mis-alignment, directional tyres, cheap tyres and so on. For example the link above identifies worn components as the most likely cause. A bit of research on UK and US Passat specific forums sites alignment and directional tyres as the most likely cause.

Alignment seems an obvious candidate and something I'll have checked. Although the fact that the wear pattern and severity is identical on both sides of the vehicle makes me suspicious of an inherent design fault rather than mis-alignment through damage or wear (both of which typically exhibit one side more than the other or with different wear patterns left to right).

However, IMO, unless the springs are broken (which they're not) these are the least likely cause of the issue. Worn shocks are, IMO, a far more likely cause since they would allow the wheel to bounce along the road putting an oscillating load on the tyres. The rear suspension on the Passat B6 has a visible (non-adjustable) negative camber which in turn would put that oscillating load on the inside edge of the tyres. This I can see causing the saw tooth wear pattern! Worn bushes could further add to the issue of course.






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Paul_C

posted on 26/5/12 at 08:47 AM Reply With Quote
Add me to the list. The rear tyres on my Honda Civic have also worn the same way since new. I had never seen it before. I have been told that it is common on the Type R and that it's possible to adjust the rear suspension geometry so that it doesn't happen but it then affects the handling. I haven't bothered because the rear tyres still outlast the fronts. I'd prefer the rear end to stick to the road at all times and just pay for the tyres.
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MakeEverything

posted on 26/5/12 at 11:25 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ReMan
Problem occurs on Saabs, my 9-3.
Blocking I think it is referered to on the Saabs, where the tread blocks are alternatly worn/not worn


I discovered that on my old CBR1000 motorcycle. I was in the isle of man at the time, so you can imagine the speeds that i started getting tank slappers at. Turned out, it was 'Blocking' of the front tyre, which when replaced resolved the issue. The cause of that, turned out to be slack springs in the front forks.

Rode over 1000 miles with the forks like that though, and just over half that with the tendency to tank slap. It was a good week though.





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ReMan

posted on 26/5/12 at 09:26 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MakeEverything
quote:
Originally posted by ReMan
Problem occurs on Saabs, my 9-3.
Blocking I think it is referered to on the Saabs, where the tread blocks are alternatly worn/not worn


I discovered that on my old CBR1000 motorcycle. I was in the isle of man at the time, so you can imagine the speeds that i started getting tank slappers at. Turned out, it was 'Blocking' of the front tyre, which when replaced resolved the issue. The cause of that, turned out to be slack springs in the front forks.

Rode over 1000 miles with the forks like that though, and just over half that with the tendency to tank slap. It was a good week though.



It varies depending on the tyres, the strange thisng with the blocking as opposed to the cupping, is unless youve seen it you almst would'nt believe it was possible





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MikeRJ

posted on 26/5/12 at 10:30 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Paul_C
Add me to the list. The rear tyres on my Honda Civic have also worn the same way since new.


Had the same on a friends Civic Vti on a European road trip a couple of years back. I could have sworn we had a wheel bearing on the way out, and mentioned this several times. Finaly we discovered the tyre on the nearside rear had worn all the tread blocks at an angle. The car had a mixed set of tyres on it when he bought it, and the affected tyre was a Pirelli P6000. He's been through a couple of sets of tyres since then (Toyo T1R) and it's never happened again.

This effect is very unlikely to be caused by a faulty damper IMO. If a damper gets to the stage where it's so knackered that it's affecting tyre wear then you tend to get several defined patches of wear around the tyre, it doesn't affect every single tread block.

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loggyboy

posted on 26/5/12 at 11:00 PM Reply With Quote
When you say the allignment is correct, do you mean its as the manufacturers levels?
Id so I would say these are simply wrong!
I recal a similar known issue was on the IS200, which wore heavily on the inner edge of the fronts. Lexus/Toyota refused to acknoledge it, but a few speacilst played around with different settings that not only cured the wear, but made the car handle better. The general concensus was that toyota used the 4cyl altezza settings for the IS200, which had a heavier 6 cyl engine but didnt revise allignment to suit.
Try somewhere like Wheels in Motion, bet of a trec, but notoriouslly good with specialist allignment.
http://www.blackboots.co.uk/tyres-wheels-lexus.php





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nick205

posted on 28/5/12 at 01:27 PM Reply With Quote
Been researching a little more and found that the Kenda Kasier tyres I have fitted on the rear are quite poorly reviewed by drivers of most makes of car (although I did notice the Rover 75 owners club seemed quite keen on them ) for all sorts of reasons including; wear and noise levels.






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