James
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 03:08 PM |
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O/T: Question for the electronics engineers... amazing or snake oil?
So, one for the electronic engineers/knowledgeable people...
The facilities department at work wish to implement this on our largeish (500 people or so) site.
I looked at the mail that went out and straight away thought it sounded like too good to be true nonsense!
Then I went on the website and it looked even worse! lol
http://www.powerperfector.com/
Snake oil? Or something amazing?
Cheers,
James
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 03:16 PM |
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Not snake oil, just uses basic electrical engineering technology..
Basically most equipment in Europe is rated at 220-250 volts and we have a 240 volt supply (I know regs say 230).
All the kit does is lower the voltage to 220 from 240 thereby reducing the power consumed. It basically a very well engineered transformer.
The other thing it does is improve power factor further reducing power consumption.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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paulf
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 05:21 PM |
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I would think it depends on what equipment it is running, a motor only draws its full current when fully loaded and if the voltage is reduced it will
draw more current for the same power output, solid state devises with switched mode supply's automatically adjust to suit the input voltage,
heaters and filament lamps would use less power but also give less output.
Surely it would be better for the power company's to reduce the supply voltage if the theory is correct and help everyone save money.
Paul
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AdrianH
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 05:43 PM |
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SNAKE OIL
If a unit requires 240 watts to operate then at 240 Volts AC rms then it will draw 1 Amp from the supply.
If the voltage is dropped to 220 Volts then it will take 1.091 Amps from the supply.
There are some gains to be had if you have big machinery that has a poor power factor, in that the supply company may penalize you for the heavy
current draw, but if you are quite modern in equipment or are not pulling mega watts you may struggle to see a benefit.
That is how I see it anyway.
Adrian
Why do I have to make the tools to finish the job? More time then money.
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smart51
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 06:09 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by AdrianH
SNAKE OIL
If a unit requires 240 watts to operate then at 240 Volts AC rms then it will draw 1 Amp from the supply.
If the voltage is dropped to 220 Volts then it will take 1.091 Amps from the supply.
There are some gains to be had if you have big machinery that has a poor power factor, in that the supply company may penalize you for the heavy
current draw, but if you are quite modern in equipment or are not pulling mega watts you may struggle to see a benefit.
That is how I see it anyway.
Adrian
Not quite. I depends what it is. A light bulb will be draw less power on 220v than 240, so it will be a bit dimmer. Anything with a switched mode
power supply will draw more current to make if for the lower voltage but most stuff won't. It is simpler just to fit smaller light bulbs if you
want to save power.
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Stott
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 06:13 PM |
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That doesn't quite work though as wattage is quoted at a given voltage.
For example lets say a lamp has an internal resistance of 10 ohms, at 240v it will draw 24A, at 220v it will draw 22A and so on. The power consumed
reduces accordingly, the resistance/inductance of the load is the governing factor in the current consumed.
Atb
Stott
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James
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 06:13 PM |
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The response I got from an electronics engineer I know:
"I believe that it is a clear example of smoke and mirrors, pseudo science and a technical equivalent of copper bracelets.
Any equipment that has a switched-mode supply (i.e. pretty well all electronic equipment) will take the same power because that is what a
switched-mode supply does. So as the mains voltage is reduced there is a pro-rata increase in current. Power, for which you actually pay, will be the
same.
Power (watts, Kwatts, etc) = volts x amps. There are no shortcuts.
For any heating equipment (with resistive loads) at reduced mains voltage would take less current but also less power so either there is a reduction
in the heat output or the heater would need to be on for longer for thesame heat output. Think of a 1KW kattle and a 3KW kettle. One heats up the
water 3 x as fast but the energy is the same.
If this place is seriously thinking about it they should get and electrical engineer (or even someone like me) to talk to the (conmen) company selling
the equipment and then ask for a demonstration of the supposed power saving with various loads and a power meter.
You can't beat the laws of physics and nature.
"
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"The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses, behind the lines, in the gym and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights."
- Muhammad Ali
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Peteff
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 06:16 PM |
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If it's a transformer it will use power to regulate the voltage whenever it is connected to the grid, that's what they do. It's
snake oil in my view.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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Macbeast
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 06:37 PM |
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You will find it difficult to catch and hold that snake.
I'm addicted to brake fluid, but I can stop anytime.
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blakep82
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 06:47 PM |
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the 'client savings' display seems to start at the same numbers every time i open it, that staright away shouts shennanigans to me..
________________________
IVA manual link http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1081997083
don't write OT on a new thread title, you're creating the topic, everything you write is very much ON topic!
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AdrianH
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 07:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by smart51
Not quite. I depends what it is. A light bulb will be draw less power on 220v than 240, so it will be a bit dimmer. Anything with a switched mode
power supply will draw more current to make if for the lower voltage but most stuff won't. It is simpler just to fit smaller light bulbs if you
want to save power.
Yes a light bulb is a resistive device, so less Volts also means less current and less wattage = dimmer bulb.
Old TV's, old receivers and other old equipment of electronic or electrical nature would generally have poor regulation in them hence you had
to set voltage tappings. Jump to modern day and check most 'switched mode power supplies for domestic equipment, computers IT equipment etc and
the general voltage input is automatic from 98 Volts AC to 240 Volts AC. The switch mode section will regulate its output drawing more current at
lower voltages less at high the over all effect is the VA stays the same.
Also why I said "but if you are quite modern in equipment or are not pulling mega watts you may struggle to see a benefit. "
still say it's Snake Oil.
Adrian
Why do I have to make the tools to finish the job? More time then money.
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The Shootist
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 posted on 12/11/12 at 07:28 PM |
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Snake oil for sure....
Power factor correction went around here in the US a while back.
IF you have a REALLY POOR power factor, and you have REALLY HIGH power rates, then the units look kind of possible, BUT the devices usually have a
service life of less than their payback period.
We went around our plant with an engineer that swore we could save $100,000 USD per year via power factor correction. Our bill was $9,000 USD per
month.
I handed him an electricians pocket reference and asked him to check his math.
Most of our equipment had a payback of decades to install the power saving units.
Monies are much better spent on process efficiency improvements and obtaining maximum operating capacity from your processes.
As for voltage stepping.....pure snake oil.
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paulf
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 08:12 PM |
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As well as reasons stated above the fact that it is a transformer means that there is also some internal losses so even less likely to save
anything.
The only way i see it helping is if it corrects a poor power factor .
Paul
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owelly
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 08:15 PM |
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I'm going to try it. I'm sat in the control room of a powerstation generating power at 4160volts. At 21:00 hours, I'll drop the
volts to 4130 and see what the meters say at 21:00hrs tomorrow. I'll have the gas meter readings to tell me how much gas we've used and
the MW meters to tell me how much power we've exported.
Game on...
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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McLannahan
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 08:20 PM |
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I had one fitted at my last place of work.
There were issues....
Starters had to be replaced on loads of strip lights, was no longer enough meat to power them up! Would just flicker on and off.
Had to replace whole strip light units that even after a starter change wouldn't work. In the defence of the unit we did have a lot of older
strip lights but they hadn't warned us about this.
Interference was seen on quite a few data projectors.
Some data projectors wouldn't work so well anymore with longer source leads. Shorter and good quality video/VGA leads were fine. Longer or
cheaper leads..no. Projectors refused to believe there was an output. Also more of an issue with domestic laptops. More commercial graded appliances
seemed to survive better.
However....we did start to see some savings. Not vast, but worth having. Having said that with the numerous site visits, electricians and new hardware
needed....
Had power down completely for a whole day too. It must interrupt the primary feed to the whole premises. Not that easy to plan with IT
services....
Would I install another?
No.
Hope that helps!
Give me a shout if you want more info or a contact of the chap that now has the hassle...it's not me now I've left! It wasn't my
idea to install, was forced upon me my management!
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iank
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| posted on 12/11/12 at 10:01 PM |
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Any half way modern business building won't have any resistive light-bulbs, fluorescent ballasts and the new and shiny new LED ballasts will be
switched mode power supplies so you won't see any saving for those as they bump the current up to maintain the design power.
As said any technology stuck between the mains and the building will introduce it's own inefficiencies so you'll be lucky to see any pay
off over the design lifetime unless you have an atypical demand profile.
--
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
Anonymous
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 13/11/12 at 05:09 PM |
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The power perfecter sits between the utilities transformer and the load, it is true it doesn't work for every one and as said older equipment
not designed to run between 220 and 250 will have problems, that said I have designed installations for a few clients and they all see savings.
Power perfecter come to site and do a detailed survey of your installed kit and then tell you the predicted savings before you buy.
They do come with available funding through various 'green' channels.
I do not work for them by they way, I have just designed installations for the equipment for various clients of mine and have had feedback that they
work.
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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owelly
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| posted on 14/11/12 at 12:29 AM |
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Well, I reduced the voltage and ran the powerstation for 24hrs. It buggered-up the power factor slightly and used exactly the same energy per
megawatt. In fact, I took a set of readings earlier than 21:00hrs to match the previous days load and it also used the same amount of gas. I
didn't interrogate the parasitic load as it would be about the same for both test periods.
So for the load here, which is a (+/-)3MW radar and support services, reducing the voltage made no measurable difference over 24hrs!
http://www.ppcmag.co.uk
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sickbag
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| posted on 14/11/12 at 08:06 AM |
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In a similar vein - would it be better to just convert the incoming supply to DC, reduce that to 220v (example) then run all of your equipment from
that? Obviously you couldn't run everything from DC but enough to see a difference?
Finally back on the job!
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dhutch
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| posted on 14/11/12 at 08:44 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by sickbag...obviously you couldn't run everything...
Costsaving! Less=More....
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Krismc
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| posted on 17/11/12 at 03:43 PM |
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One our our clients use them in there 'superstores' and they turn the power down at night, reducing the brightness of lighting , power of
the fridges, but then plays silly buggers with the lifts and esculators? as it alters the frequency (normally 50Hz).
Also if you have any equipment with Phase convertors, phase Failures, Phase monitors etc. you will find it will burn them out or trip them regular.
Tell me you application and every thing you got and ill work some figures out for you, and some advice.
Kris
Built, Ivaed, Drove and now Sold - 2011 MNR VORTX RT+ 2000cc Zetec on R1 Throttle boddies.
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