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Author: Subject: lock washers on brake disk bolts?
Jumpy Guy

posted on 10/5/05 at 04:15 PM Reply With Quote
lock washers on brake disk bolts?

the lock "bent tab" type washers have disintegrated...
do i really need them, or will properly torqued bolts, with threadlock be enough?

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Fifer

posted on 10/5/05 at 04:24 PM Reply With Quote
If it's for SVA they will need to be fitted.
I dare say if the car is on the road already, you would get away without

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Jumpy Guy

posted on 10/5/05 at 04:29 PM Reply With Quote
i thought so...
which brings me to my next question- where can i get these?
Ford?

any suggestions?

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Northy

posted on 10/5/05 at 05:32 PM Reply With Quote
I've seen them on Westfields online shop site.





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flak monkey

posted on 10/5/05 at 05:34 PM Reply With Quote
If you are using cortina uprights then use the attached template to cut yourself some locking tabs from 20swg sheet.

David





Sera

http://www.motosera.com

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bigandy

posted on 10/5/05 at 05:37 PM Reply With Quote
Are these lock tabs only required on the cortina style uprights? I'm using Sierra uprights, and I'm just about to fit the front brake disks/claipers this evening! There is no mention of them in the Haynes manual though.

Cheers
Andy

PS:
http://www.westfield-sportscars.co.uk/shop/product.asp?numRecordPosition=9&P_ID=137&strPageHistory=cat&strKeywords=&SearchF or=&PT_ID=70





Dammit! Too many decisions....

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flak monkey

posted on 10/5/05 at 05:43 PM Reply With Quote
The ones in that PDF are for the cortina discs, not sure about sierra requirements. Arent the sierra discs sandwiched between the wheel and hub like on most modern cars? In which case you wouldnt need locking tabs as the wheel holds the disc on....

PS that PDF belongs to someone on here, sorry for knicking it!





Sera

http://www.motosera.com

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Avoneer

posted on 10/5/05 at 05:48 PM Reply With Quote
I'm sure "frilly" washers would do the job and not sure the locking plate thing is an SVA requirement.
Pat...





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However a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.

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Kissy

posted on 10/5/05 at 08:07 PM Reply With Quote
On the disc retention issue I drilled my bolt heads for s/steel lock wire. I assume the same could be done for the calipers, but am not sure how Mr. SVA would view it. Used to be ok for Helicopters and Torpedoes.
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grusks

posted on 10/5/05 at 08:25 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Kissy
On the disc retention issue I drilled my bolt heads for s/steel lock wire. I assume the same could be done for the calipers, but am not sure how Mr. SVA would view it. Used to be ok for Helicopters and Torpedoes.



Same here. Drilled and locked wired. And locktite.

[Edited on 10/5/05 by grusks]





Need More Money

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NS Dev

posted on 10/5/05 at 08:34 PM Reply With Quote
why the hell does SVA need the locktabs???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I know people have been picked up on this but I have owned many Opel Mantas, which use an identical system to the Cortina for mounting the discs, and they never had any locktabs as std!!!!!

I have never had a non-locktabbed, or loctited, or lockwired disc bolt come loose either!

What a load of old crap

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paulf

posted on 10/5/05 at 08:44 PM Reply With Quote
I didnt have any locktabs for SVA and passed no problems.I also never have had them fitted to other cars and cant see the need .If the disk bolts did come loose which is highly unlikely, surely any one sensible would notice long before the disk came adrift.
Paul
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
why the hell does SVA need the locktabs???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

I know people have been picked up on this but I have owned many Opel Mantas, which use an identical system to the Cortina for mounting the discs, and they never had any locktabs as std!!!!!

I have never had a non-locktabbed, or loctited, or lockwired disc bolt come loose either!

What a load of old crap

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NS Dev

posted on 11/5/05 at 07:48 AM Reply With Quote
That's good then, cheers! I have none and have no intention of fitting them as

1) I don't have any

2) have no intention of wasting time making some and

3) in some circumstances, particularly when bolting a hard cast iron disc up using a hard high tensile bolt, the soft locktab can actually do more herm than good as it sqeezes (yields) and causes the bolt to come loose!

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David Jenkins

posted on 11/5/05 at 07:56 AM Reply With Quote
I think the SVA mentality is "This is the way it was designed to be fitted, so I expect it to be done the same way."
Whether you consider it right or wrong is up to you - but you risk getting a SVA inspector with an alternative view!
If I was fitting these things again (or if I ever take them off again) then I'd probably lock-wire the bolt heads, as someone mentioned previously.

David





The older I get, the better I was...

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DaveFJ

posted on 11/5/05 at 11:22 AM Reply With Quote
Lock wire and thread lock fo me


[img][/img]





Dave

"In Support of Help the Heroes" - Always

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Fifer

posted on 11/5/05 at 12:13 PM Reply With Quote
It pays to read the posts in full. I missunderstood the origional question in that I though it was the Calliper Bolt Locking tabs that were missing
If it had been the calliper bolt tabs in discussion, I can advise that my SVA man commented on these and that they were new.
I have no doubt though that he would have been happy with lock wire.
I also agree with the comment above on "if it was designed and origionally meant to be there, fit them" as I guess Henry Fords Guys know a bit more about engineering that most of us on this site.
Again, sorry for writing rubish and thanks for setting me straight in such a kind way.

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NS Dev

posted on 11/5/05 at 12:48 PM Reply With Quote
Sorry!!!!

I didn't mean anything unpleasant!!!

It's just that working on a large variety of cars quickly makes you realise that maybe Henry Ford didn't do it for a reason, otherwise why hasn't every vauxhall Cavalier, Astra, Corsa, Calibra etc etc caliper fallen off! These are retained by caphead bolts with no lockwashers or locktabs, although they are loctited and I do reloctite them when refitting.

Equally, if henry did it for a reason, then why didn't he do it on a sierra!??

Does the SVA man fail cars using sierra uprights without locktabs? If not then why does he fail the cortina ones!!!!????

As an engineer I always was told to ask "why" 5 times, and then I might get near the real answer. I have yet to see a real answer for using locktabs not loctite, especially as Ford made the change from one to the other!!!!!

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Fifer

posted on 11/5/05 at 02:29 PM Reply With Quote
Good points, but, you have to take into acount the thread types, are they (can they easily be) torqued, advances in engineering design and materials etc etc etc.
I am an engineer from a backgound of large marine engines, turbines and drilling equipment where we used a range of locking methods from simple non critical tighten by hand types to hydraulically tightened bolts to thousands of foot pounds torqued bolts to (and I qoute from the manual of a National 2000hp mud pump fluid end nuts) "Two men on a 6 foot bar".
It also is worthy of note that on race motorcycles, and cars, you will notice almost every nut, bolt and pin is wired and scrutineered on this.
We could go on and on......but....
I still always fit or use the method of fixing as per design (or better)

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craig1410

posted on 11/5/05 at 10:05 PM Reply With Quote
I was lucky and was able to reuse my existing tabs as one of the pair of tabs on each bolt was still flat and unused. However, I wouldn't have thought twice about using locktite and a good quality new (not one that's been rattling around in my bolt jar for 1000 years!) spring washer.

On the subject of loctite, many of you will already be aware that there are many different types of locking compound each with different temperature ratings and hardnesses. For brake discs where temperatures may reach several 100 degrees it is vital that you use appropriate locking compound if you are relying on it as part of your strategy for keeping your discs attached. Perhaps this is one reason why the SVA inspectors prefer the original "physical" locking mechanism in preference to invisible loctite which may be of the wrong type and may burn up at 500 degrees.

How hard is it to just make up some locking tabs from the PDF template anyway? Surely it's worth spending an hour or so?

Cheers,
Craig.

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britishtrident

posted on 12/5/05 at 06:49 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by NS Dev
Sorry!!!!

I didn't mean anything unpleasant!!!

It's just that working on a large variety of cars quickly makes you realise that maybe Henry Ford didn't do it for a reason, otherwise why hasn't every vauxhall Cavalier, Astra, Corsa, Calibra etc etc caliper fallen off! These are retained by caphead bolts with no lockwashers or locktabs, although they are loctited and I do reloctite them when refitting.

Equally, if henry did it for a reason, then why didn't he do it on a sierra!??

Does the SVA man fail cars using sierra uprights without locktabs? If not then why does he fail the cortina ones!!!!????

As an engineer I always was told to ask "why" 5 times, and then I might get near the real answer. I have yet to see a real answer for using locktabs not loctite, especially as Ford made the change from one to the other!!!!!


Viva, Victor, Cresta Mk1/2 Cortina, Avenger, Hunter, Marina, MGB, 1800/Princess, Jags Triumphs all used plain spring washers with no problem.

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NS Dev

posted on 12/5/05 at 07:53 AM Reply With Quote
Thank-you Britishtrident!

This thread could go on and on and get nowhere, but........

I am aware of what is done on race cars......I race one!

I have no locktabs or lockwire on anything, have a solid mounted engine which vibrates enough that the biggest problem I have is keeping rivets from popping their heads off! I have not yet had a bolt come loose in 3 years racing!!

However I do loctite pretty much every bolt, and use nylocs on pretty much everything too, as well as the most critical bit, making sure that everything is torqued up correctly (as Fifer said, thread type and appropriate torque values are critical)

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Rorty

posted on 15/5/05 at 05:15 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Viva, Victor, Cresta Mk1/2 Cortina, Avenger, Hunter, Marina, MGB, 1800/Princess, Jags Triumphs all used plain spring washers with no problem.

And those spring/split washers are the greatest waste of time of all. A plain hardened washer would be of more use!

Avoneer, those "frilly" washers as you refer to them as, are only designed for little more than finger tightening; not for any situation that calls for torquing a fastener. And they're designed for use on soft materials such as when mounting plastic switches on aluminium panels etc. They are frequently misused.





Cheers, Rorty.

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NS Dev

posted on 15/5/05 at 07:53 AM Reply With Quote
..........well, I didn't say that as Britishtrident was backing up my point about the locktabs.......but yes, have to agree that they are crap! Tend to sqeeze out and lose clamping force, I never use these either!

The point is, brake calipers and discs don't come loose if mounted properly on locktited bolts, so why the locktabs!

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