myke pocock
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| posted on 7/7/13 at 06:54 PM |
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Qatada, at last!!!
At long last he's gone and, do you know, I couldnt care less what the Jordanians do to him considering what he has done to others himself.
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metro6r4
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| posted on 7/7/13 at 07:21 PM |
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it shouldn't have been that hard to get rid of him
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Slimy38
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| posted on 7/7/13 at 07:36 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by myke pocock
At long last he's gone and, do you know, I couldnt care less what the Jordanians do to him considering what he has done to others himself.
I'm hoping Jordan goes back on its promises...
The BBC did mention that the government were reconsidering their position with the court of human rights, part of me thinks that's a good thing
but I also know it has worked in our favour as well.
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Theshed
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| posted on 7/7/13 at 07:52 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by myke pocock
At long last he's gone and, do you know, I couldnt care less what the Jordanians do to him considering what he has done to others himself.
What's that exactly? He has never been tried in his presence for any crime. Call me old fashioned but I quite like the idea of innocent until
proven guilty and am pleased with the idea that we frown on torture.
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coozer
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| posted on 7/7/13 at 08:12 PM |
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And, what about the rest?
1972 V8 Jago
1980 Z750
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Simon
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| posted on 7/7/13 at 10:20 PM |
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What I can't understand is how easy it actually would be.
Eg, We wanted this chap out, and the European Court said we couldn't. He therefore becomes the responsibility of the European Court and his
passport to the UK is cancelled. End of.
ATB
Simon
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skodaman
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 posted on 8/7/13 at 04:03 AM |
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Jordan's not allowed to use evidence obtained from him under torture. Doesn't mean they can't torture him though.
Skodaman
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whitestu
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| posted on 8/7/13 at 07:08 AM |
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Whetever he's done sending him to live with Katie Price seems to harsh a punishment.
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Not Anumber
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| posted on 8/7/13 at 08:57 AM |
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... but possibly rather less horrible than being fostered by Madonna
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 8/7/13 at 11:47 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by myke pocock
At long last he's gone and, do you know, I couldnt care less what the Jordanians do to him considering what he has done to others himself.
It's a funny situation - all it took was the combined political powers of (at least) two nation states.
It is disturbing that it was easier to grease the political railroad and remove the man from the country rather than educate people to just dismiss
his ideas.
It should make people think - what lengths would a state go to in order to achieve its own ends when, in fact, people celebrate the fact that they
"finally removed a terrorist from our shores".
As for "Human Rights" - it is a fairly obvious argument: either everyone has them or no-one does.
Make your choice but remember it is always easier to give up a right than it is to obtain it.
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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Peteff
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| posted on 8/7/13 at 11:57 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
It should make people think - what lengths would a state go to in order to achieve its own ends when, in fact, people celebrate the fact that they
"finally removed a terrorist from our shores".
As for "Human Rights" - it is a fairly obvious argument: either everyone has them or no-one does.
Make your choice but remember it is always easier to give up a right than it is to obtain it.
So it's everybody's right to do as they like ? Why should we finance his hate campaign against us ? I'd like to know if his family
is still here or if they have gone with him.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 8/7/13 at 12:15 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
It should make people think - what lengths would a state go to in order to achieve its own ends when, in fact, people celebrate the fact that they
"finally removed a terrorist from our shores".
As for "Human Rights" - it is a fairly obvious argument: either everyone has them or no-one does.
Make your choice but remember it is always easier to give up a right than it is to obtain it.
So it's everybody's right to do as they like ? Why should we finance his hate campaign against us ? I'd like to know if his family
is still here or if they have gone with him.
Yes, actually - criminality is "post event".
Society needs to grow up before something really bad happens and we really loose our way.
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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britishtrident
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| posted on 8/7/13 at 02:23 PM |
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The way I see it its the same as the argument against the death penalty; We now treat monsters as if they were reasonable human beings, but if we
treat them they way they deserve we fear we will become the monsters. Now the media is full of apologists for the worst serial killers of the 20th
century like Ian Brady, Fred West, Petter Sutcliffe and Peter Manuel. The current human rights view on punishment only values the human rights of
the guilty, the humans rights of the victims at ignored.
Had we liberated the death camps of WW2 today doubtless the European Court would demand we give community service orders to the camp commandants.
What we should do is stop giving asylum or any kind of admittance to anybody who does not promise to abide by by our culture and not engage in any
kind of political or extreme religious activity.
While many ethnic and cultural groups have immigrated into the UK seamlessly without losing grip of their cultural identity, the importing of
criminal activity and political unrest via immigration has always been a problem. In the period from the late 19th century until early 1920s the
UK and most of western Europe had problems with anarchists and criminals coming in with genuine refugees from Russia and Eastern Europe but that
settled down as succeeding generations became normalised to the accepted memes of western civilisation. What worries me is the current wave of
immigrants (from all parts of the world) are making no effort to fit in with the ethics of western countries which generated the conditions that
drew them here, the cynical would a case of turkeys voting for xmas.
[Edited on 8/7/13 by britishtrident]
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
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MikeRJ
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| posted on 8/7/13 at 03:47 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
Yes, actually - criminality is "post event".
So how does that tie in with conspiracy, which is a criminal offence you can be charged with before you have carried out the "event"?
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The current human rights view on punishment only values the human rights of the guilty, the humans rights of the victims at ignored.
That sums it up very nicely for me.
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 9/7/13 at 06:49 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
Yes, actually - criminality is "post event".
So how does that tie in with conspiracy, which is a criminal offence you can be charged with before you have carried out the "event"?
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
The current human rights view on punishment only values the human rights of the guilty, the humans rights of the victims at ignored.
That sums it up very nicely for me.
There is and has to be a threshold, i.e. if someone in the street overhears a conversation which ends "I am gonna do 'x'", is
that a conspiracy - if so, people better be careful what they say.
Unfortunately, crime and punishment are political footballs which the parties, the press and (to some extent) the public kick around from time to
time.
Regarding the death penalty, are we really debating whether the punishment fits the crime or whether the collective bays for blood?
It is abhorrent to think that our potential legacy could be the reinstatement of legalised murder - and it is murder.
It is the premeditated taking of a life - it serves no purpose other than to reduce a life to an amount of money.
In my opinion, if you want a fair society, you have to pay for it. You need jails, jailers, a fair criminal justice system, police above reproach,
schools, hospitals etc. etc. etc.
BUT people don't want that, they don't want to pay for it. They believe, rightly or wrongly, that these are all symptoms of "big
government" and that we need to be more self-reliant, look after ourselves etc.
People are always willing to offload their responsibility onto others - Qatada is a case in point.
We wouldn't/couldn't do or prove anything (or whatever the political excuses were) so we simply sent him "abroad" (i.e.
someone elses problem).
We mess, meddle, play around with other nations as if we are some sort of high & mighty pinnicle of statehood (bit like the USA) yet we still have
abuse, poverty, people homeless, we let organisations run rough-shot over others. We are against torture but are willing to allow other states to
torture.
I think we should set our own house in order first.
Edited because I really messed up the quotes...
[Edited on 9/7/13 by onenastyviper]
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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JoelP
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| posted on 9/7/13 at 12:23 PM |
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Qatada is off to face a trial. He was too dangerous to release here. This obsession with human rights will be the end of us, it needs sorting out.
This current nonsense about a whole life tariff being inhumane and degrading, summarises the problem well. In any case, who decided that punishments
shouldn't be degrading?
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 12/7/13 at 06:00 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Qatada is off to face a trial. He was too dangerous to release here. This obsession with human rights will be the end of us, it needs sorting out.
This current nonsense about a whole life tariff being inhumane and degrading, summarises the problem well. In any case, who decided that punishments
shouldn't be degrading?
I was going to write a long post lecturing over how we are being shaped to give up our rights (in my opinion).
Instead, I ask you all to consider what you would surrender to be safe and what would you surrender to be free?
By now, life should have taught you that these are not the same.
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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Theshed
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| posted on 12/7/13 at 08:23 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Qatada is off to face a trial. He was too dangerous to release here. This obsession with human rights will be the end of us, it needs sorting out.
This current nonsense about a whole life tariff being inhumane and degrading, summarises the problem well. In any case, who decided that punishments
shouldn't be degrading?
Well..... Winston Churchill said
"The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment of crime and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of the civilisation of
any country. A calm and dispassionate recognition of the rights of the accused against the state and even of convicted criminals against the state, a
constant heart-searching by all charged with the duty of punishment, a desire and eagerness to rehabilitate in the world of industry of all those who
have paid their dues in the hard coinage of punishment, tireless efforts towards the discovery of curative and regenerating processes and an
unfaltering faith that there is a treasure, if only you can find it in the heart of every person – these are the symbols which in the treatment of
crime and criminals mark and measure the stored up strength of a nation, and are the sign and proof of the living virtue in it.”
So will somebody tell me what he is said to have done? I suspect all the dross above about "hate preacher" actually refers to other
people. Can you recall who our government asked to plead for the life of Kenneth Bigley? Some bloke called Qatada...
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JoelP
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| posted on 12/7/13 at 08:38 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Theshed
quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Qatada is off to face a trial. He was too dangerous to release here. This obsession with human rights will be the end of us, it needs sorting out.
This current nonsense about a whole life tariff being inhumane and degrading, summarises the problem well. In any case, who decided that punishments
shouldn't be degrading?
Well..... Winston Churchill said
"The mood and temper of the public in regard to the treatment of crime and criminals is one of the most unfailing tests of the civilisation of
any country. A calm and dispassionate recognition of the rights of the accused against the state and even of convicted criminals against the state, a
constant heart-searching by all charged with the duty of punishment, a desire and eagerness to rehabilitate in the world of industry of all those who
have paid their dues in the hard coinage of punishment, tireless efforts towards the discovery of curative and regenerating processes and an
unfaltering faith that there is a treasure, if only you can find it in the heart of every person – these are the symbols which in the treatment of
crime and criminals mark and measure the stored up strength of a nation, and are the sign and proof of the living virtue in it.”
So will somebody tell me what he is said to have done? I suspect all the dross above about "hate preacher" actually refers to other
people. Can you recall who our government asked to plead for the life of Kenneth Bigley? Some bloke called Qatada...
Well, to answer in two parts, i believe Winston was wrong there. Some people are beyond rehabilitation, and even were they not, some crimes are beyond
forgiveness. I feel no need to try to find the good in everyone, some people arent good and dont deserve a second chance. Not refering to Qatada
there, i would mean people like Mark Bridger, or Roy Whitting, who are lucky enough to be incarcerated in a soceity that doesnt allow them to be
mutilated for their irredeeamable sins.
Qatada obviously didnt commit crimes that could reach the threshold for prosecution. The government obviously felt he was dangerous enough to keep off
the streets anyway. Fortunately for him, as i said before, he's now in Jordan with a chance to prove his innocence of the crimes they accuse him
of. Are you really implying that the government or security services have had a witchhunt against him? And regarding Ken Bigley, im sure the gov
wouldnt hesitate to ask Qatada to plead for his life if they thought it would save him. It sadly didnt.
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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SteveWalker
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| posted on 12/7/13 at 11:05 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Qatada obviously didnt commit crimes that could reach the threshold for prosecution
That's not necessarily the case. It could also be that he has committed crimes or conspired to do so, but the evidence may have been gathered by
the security services. If that is so, they may be unable to bring him to court simply because to reveal that evidence could give away their sources
and/or endanger the method of collecting it, preventing further, possibly vital, information being gathered in the future.
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JoelP
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| posted on 13/7/13 at 05:52 AM |
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Good point.
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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jeffw
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| posted on 13/7/13 at 06:16 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
Yes, actually - criminality is "post event".
Society needs to grow up before something really bad happens and we really loose our way.
Not wishing to be a spelling Nazi but should that not be 'lose our way'
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jeffw
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| posted on 13/7/13 at 06:21 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Qatada is off to face a trial. He was too dangerous to release here. This obsession with human rights will be the end of us, it needs sorting out.
This current nonsense about a whole life tariff being inhumane and degrading, summarises the problem well. In any case, who decided that punishments
shouldn't be degrading?
The Court of Human Rights has found that whole life sentences should be reviewed (nothing more) after a period of time (say 25 years). The Media has
turned it into we can't have whole life sentences which is not the case as there is nothing to say that after any review the whole life tariff
remains.
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onenastyviper
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| posted on 13/7/13 at 06:58 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
quote:
Originally posted by onenastyviper
Yes, actually - criminality is "post event".
Society needs to grow up before something really bad happens and we really loose our way.
Not wishing to be a spelling Nazi but should that not be 'lose our way'
Thank you for pointing that out, I stand (spelling) corrected.
"If I knew what I was doing then it wouldn't be called research would it?...duh!"
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jeffw
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| posted on 13/7/13 at 07:33 AM |
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I thought you might want to know.....
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