13" wheels on a roadster

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Rosco86

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posted on 20/11/14 at 01:33 PM

13" wheels on a roadster

Is anyone running 13" wheels on a roadster and minds sharing a few photos of how you've made them fit?

Stot

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posted on 20/11/14 at 03:07 PM

I'm about to fit 13" wheels on mine but they are steelies and the running gear is 1.6 MX5 so they fit fine.

I'm pretty sure that the smallest wheels you can get on a Sierra build are 14".

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Stot

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posted on 20/11/14 at 04:08 PM

I'm assuming you've got a sierra running gear ?

which brakes have you got ?

if its the 240mm front discs and rear drums then I believe there is a good chance 13" wheels will fit depending on the make/model of the wheels (as they all have different amounts of space inside - even if they are quoted as the same size)

but it'll be a tight squeeze so you really need to double check the actual sizes / clearances before you buy anything

if you've got bigger brakes than that they probably won't fit without some work

[Edited on 20/11/2014 by mcerd1]

Stot

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posted on 20/11/14 at 04:20 PM

I think its more to do with the rear uprights than the brakes on the Roadster. The book upright bolts foul on smaller wheels and you need 15" alloys, maybe 14" steels to clear the bolt heads as I understand it.

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Stot

Rosco86

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posted on 20/11/14 at 04:26 PM

so how about if i swapped the two end tubes on the lower arm for slim rose joints? i dont want to go and buy a set of 15"s to get me going then change to 13"s later down the line and yes im running sierra hubs with rear discs, im already aware you need to trim the handbrake lever on the caliper

[Edited on 20/11/14 by Rosco86]

davidimurray

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posted on 20/11/14 at 06:18 PM

Issue on the back is the width of the upright on the bottom, which when has the wishbone ends added, plus bolt = extra threads is close. Will take pics if I get chance.

You could use rod ends, but the wishbones will still be at the same centres unless you redesign, so you would have to pack out then have nuts etc so most you would save is maybe 1/2 a wishbone end.

Best thing to do would be to draw up an upright, wishbone ends etc and then draw a circle around them to represent the rim.

Rosco86

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posted on 20/11/14 at 07:11 PM

Yeah I was thinking about using rod ends and redesign that end of the lower wishbone so they were up tight against the sides of the upright, this should save me about 28mm a side if I use 12mm rose joints, also I will use a rose joint at the top of the upright that way I can have a little toe adjustment, I'm going to draw it up on the cad at work tomorrow,

David, yeah a few pics would be great, also if you could let me no what wheel size width and offset that would be great

Thanks

davidimurray

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posted on 20/11/14 at 10:24 PM

Here are a few pics - not the best as I had to crawl under the car. Wheels are 15" TSW ET36 or 38, 7" wide. When you've drawn it up would be interested in seeing how it looks. One thought - if you put rod ends in will they not be in bending and at risk of popping out especially in single shear.

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chillis

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posted on 20/11/14 at 10:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Stot
I'm about to fit 13" wheels on mine but they are steelies and the running gear is 1.6 MX5 so they fit fine.

Are you sure? I've owned and run MX-5's for 12 years and never found any 13's that would fit - what wheels have you got?

Never under estimate the ingenuity of an idiot!

Rosco86

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posted on 20/11/14 at 11:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by davidimurray
One thought - if you put rod ends in will they not be in bending and at risk of popping out especially in single

Im not sure what you mean by that? I was thinking they have a bit of movement because of the spherical part, if thats what you meant?

Also it looks like if the wheel was spaced out 30/40mm ie run a negative offset that bolt wouldn't even be a problem? Or would the arches then not be wide enough?

Thanks for taking the time to take some photos, appreciate it

Rosco86

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posted on 21/11/14 at 10:55 AM

just had a quick draw up, i will draw up the wishbone later

this gains you 20mm radially and if 14"s already fit im hoping this will be enough

davidimurray

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posted on 21/11/14 at 01:45 PM

Can't see the pic in work so will have a look when I get back. With that setup I couldn't get 14" steels over them. I had to turn my build wheels inside out! You would need a fair offset to get over them, looking directly behind the hweel you cannot see the pivot point/wishbone end.

With regard to rods ends. If you think about the upright, it is trying to rotate in the wheel to roatate the accel/decel forces. So taking it simply the upright is pushing back/forward on the wishbone. If you replace the wishbone direclty, the rod end is vertical with a bolt through it horizontally. This means that the load is trying to pop the ball out of the joint all the time. Really the rod end should be rotated 90 degrees - so the load is now being pushed against the bass which is pushing on the solid sides of the rod eye.

Hope that makes sense.

Stot

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posted on 21/11/14 at 01:55 PM

quote:
Originally posted by chillis

quote:
Originally posted by Stot
I'm about to fit 13" wheels on mine but they are steelies and the running gear is 1.6 MX5 so they fit fine.

Are you sure? I've owned and run MX-5's for 12 years and never found any 13's that would fit - what wheels have you got?

Bare in mind im not using the MX5 wishbones which may be wider, they fit fine as you can see in the pics. Thats why I bought one to start to make sure they fit first. I have the full set now with A021Rs on them.

http://www.oponeo.co.uk/steel-wheel/magnetto-wheels-mw-r1-1019
basically a MK3 Polo/Golf steel wheel.

Cheers
Stot

Rosco86

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posted on 21/11/14 at 05:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by davidimurray
Can't see the pic in work so will have a look when I get back. With that setup I couldn't get 14" steels over them. I had to turn my build wheels inside out! You would need a fair offset to get over them, looking directly behind the hweel you cannot see the pivot point/wishbone end.

With regard to rods ends. If you think about the upright, it is trying to rotate in the wheel to roatate the accel/decel forces. So taking it simply the upright is pushing back/forward on the wishbone. If you replace the wishbone direclty, the rod end is vertical with a bolt through it horizontally. This means that the load is trying to pop the ball out of the joint all the time. Really the rod end should be rotated 90 degrees - so the load is now being pushed against the bass which is pushing on the solid sides of the rod eye.

Hope that makes sense.

Yeah i get what your saying, but looking into it it looks like the high quality rose joints are designed for it, also if they were mounted at 90degrees would you get enough suspension travel?

Ive found a picture of MNR's rear upright

What do you think?

wylliezx9r

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posted on 21/11/14 at 06:05 PM

I've got a rose joint setup on my roadster, I will take some pics when I get out to the garage but it's similar to the MNR above.

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davidimurray

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posted on 21/11/14 at 06:08 PM

TBH I think you will probably be ok as long as you use good rod ends - but would monitor closely for wear /condition. The angle of articulation is an issue, which I think is why most people turn them. Should be ok as long as you go into it with your eyes open.

Might be an obvious point but check the cross section view. The top section of the upright is angled back but if you put a smaller rim on, it could catch the angled section.

Interested to see how you get on as I would like to go 13" long term. I had considered stepping in the bottom of the upright in and making some wishbones that are narrower at the upright end.

Rosco86

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posted on 23/11/14 at 05:39 PM

quote:
Originally posted by wylliezx9r
I've got a rose joint setup on my roadster, I will take some pics when I get out to the garage but it's similar to the MNR above.

That would be great, thanks!

Rosco86

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posted on 20/12/14 at 07:58 PM

Right, I've sorted it, altered the wishbone to use rod ends, I've fitted the old calliper to double check clearance, it's just the handbrake bit that needs modifying but I had read about this already

Stot

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posted on 20/12/14 at 08:25 PM

For what its worth the effort is well worth it. I went out in the cold today in mine for the first time with 13s on and its night and day with with the 15s. Its so much smoother.

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Stot

davidimurray

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posted on 21/12/14 at 11:36 AM

Looking good - you've got me tempted to have a go at mine now - must resist and get the new engine done first!

Did you use 1/2" or 12mm rod ends - do you happen to have a spec/supplier for the ones you have used? Do you know what the angular misalignment spec is and what angle are yours at. Just curious. Thanks for any info and sharing your pics.

Cheer
Dave

quote:
Originally posted by Rosco86
Right, I've sorted it, altered the wishbone to use rod ends, I've fitted the old calliper to double check clearance, it's just the handbrake bit that needs modifying but I had read about this already

Rosco86

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posted on 21/12/14 at 08:07 PM

Yeah I went for 1/2", the max angle is 12deg and that's what I'm at, the whole ball is still in the joint so I'm happy, my other option would of been to bend the two main tubes, but thought it would be stronger this way

http://www.mcgillmotorsport.com/1-2-x-1-2-right-hand-male-xmr8-ultra-high-performance-rod-end-23/

http://www.mcgillmotorsport.com/1-2-unf-right-hand-weld-in-threaded-bung-444/

Rosco86

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posted on 22/12/14 at 07:33 AM

after sleeping on this a couple of nights, im going to remake the rear wishbones so the rod ends are straight, and have a bend in the side tubes, its not because of the angle its more to do with the clearance either side of the hub, as when you wind the joints in and out the gap changes

davidimurray

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posted on 22/12/14 at 04:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Rosco86
after sleeping on this a couple of nights, im going to remake the rear wishbones so the rod ends are straight, and have a bend in the side tubes, its not because of the angle its more to do with the clearance either side of the hub, as when you wind the joints in and out the gap changes

Why are going for a bend in the rear wishbones? I wouldn't have thought that is a good idea when they are in compression as more likely to buckle.

Why not just put a central bush tube in square to the wishbone and then have your long wishbone tube meet it at an angle. You could then also put a x-brace of tube in the inside so you've got the bush tube supported on both sides and loads fed into both chassis end pivots.

Basically same as the MNR setup, but with round tube instead of oval.

Rosco86

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posted on 26/12/14 at 08:27 PM

Well got a bit of time on my mk2 rear wishbones today

I'm thinking about putting a tube here, notched round the two

And a tube at the back, obviously longer

These tubes are 25mm diameter, does anyone think I need a diagonal, I could use 19mm tube, just trying to keep the weight down, I have seen rear wishbones with no diagonals just two cross bars like in my pictures

davidimurray

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posted on 26/12/14 at 11:03 PM

Looking good.

Would definitely put a diagonal in. Currently you have almost a rectangle, but there is nothing to triangulate it. If you look at the standard wishbones they are in affect a triangular wishbone from the chassis to the upright, with the other unbraced rod acting as a toe link to keep the track.

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