splitrivet
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 08:55 AM |
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Ive seen the future
Saw quite a few of these linky on me recent jollies to Merica.
What a stunning looking bit of kit, the Pics really dont do it justice.
Yep I know one caught fire in LA but it was during a high speed chase and it hit 3 cars and a lamp post.
You'd be hard pressed to go touring in one with the range but with time that will no doubt improve.
Cheers,
Bob
I used to be a Werewolf but I'm alright nowwoooooooooooooo
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tegwin
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 09:07 AM |
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Nice looking car...Would be so much better with an efficient diesel engine in it....
"zero emissions" is a load of cockblock..... The amount of energy and chemicals required to create and transport all of the components
and then dispose of them at the end of their life is pretty high. I would wager orders of magnitude higher than that of a conventional car. Not to
mention the life-cycle cost to the consumer of an electric is pretty huge.
Charge up electric cars are not the answer. Someone needs to develop something that can be "filled up" like a conventional car for it to
actually take off.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
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mark chandler
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 09:08 AM |
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They are supposed to be very good indeed, instead of trying to squeeze Economy, would that be miles per watt MPW? They are making cars people may
actually want with chargers that work.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 10:02 AM |
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With current battery tech (and anything currently in research I believe) the range won't improve much. The end to end emissions are about
comparable for manufacture as a normal car and the well to wheel carbon costs are very similar to diesel but at least it's all released at the
power station where improvements in cleanup can be done centralised.
The big problem for the cars is charging. To charge for a decent range overnight you would need a very high power outlet which usually costs a
fortune to have installed and since range=mass it just gets worse s yougo further.
They are ideal, however, for the majority of uk car usage (shortv trips with time between) but for long distance you're gonna want a higher
energy density than batteries can offer.
There's companies renting changeable battery packs now which works but there's no infrastructure yet and questions of liability and
ongoing rental agreements with respect to car resale.
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loggyboy
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 10:59 AM |
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Saw this a few months back at Westfield shopping centre- they have a whole shop there with one stripped to the bare chassis. very interesting car.
Mistral Motorsport
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Alan B
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 11:10 AM |
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I see a few of these in South Florida......yes very nice looking cars.
One made me smile with it's number plate..
EF OPEC
:-)
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swanny
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 11:19 AM |
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pure electric may remain a niche until battery tech catches up. (city cars etc) the other bit of the equation for electric vehicles as several have
pointed out is that electricity generation via the grid is largely not emission free. it will only be when micro-generation is more widely adopted and
properly integrated with the grid that they could be seen as a 100% replacement.
battery life might not need to solve all of the problems though.
with electric/diesel hybrids you use elec for short trips and diesel when you run out dont you? with the average trip in the uk at around 7 miles a 40
miles range would be fine for most to run for 90% of the time on electric
also perhaps charging will evolve faster than the batteries. i was speaking with a guy from a large train builder and they are trialling induction
charging for battery trains at stations. so as it stops it charges up. 10 years or so this could be a home solution (park in garage at night and no
need to connect anything) or perhaps even have them installed where cars are stationery? traffic lights? M25?
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Dick Axtell
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 11:20 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by tegwin
"zero emissions" is a load of cockblock..... The amount of energy and chemicals required to create and transport all of the components
and then dispose of them at the end of their life is pretty high.
By "chemicals", I assume you referred to the batteries. Moving from the old lead/acid technology to the more recent Li - Lon type must
surely involve some seriously environmentally-unfriendly materials and by-products. Not 100% sure of all the chemistry which the production process
requires, but still sure there are some awful chemicals involved.
More certain, and apparently ignored, is what would happen to the world price of copper, if the number of electrically-powered vehicles increased
significantly?
Work-in-Progress: Changed to Zetec + T9. Still trying!!
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jeffw
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 11:27 AM |
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Our Electricity supply is marginal as it is....large scale electric car usage while push it completely over the edge. Large scale brown-outs anyone?
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 12:00 PM |
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na
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twybrow
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 12:06 PM |
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I am really surprised by the cynicism of the majority of people posting here. This is the first of a new generation of vehicles that use plug in
electric. Are all of the issues sorted that make them as attractive as an internal combustion engned vehicle? Of course not, but nor were they when mn
switched from horses to internal combustion!
The technology will grow and improve, but only given the right support and motivation by the buying public and governemnts alike. I do think that this
type of vehicle will be the short to medium term solution, and we will need to accet that things wont be exactly the same as the way things work
today. Face facts - we have a finite amount of fossil fuels, and burning them in vehicles is not exactly an efficient use of them!
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bi22le
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 12:08 PM |
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We need to be making masses of electricity with renewable methods and making these cars locally to their market. Then it will all be fine.
15 years and some of you may be eating your own words. For now I agree though.
Advancements in this sort of tech is exponential. It is always slow to stay of with but when fat cats start throwing money around and common
knowledge is shared the changes will be coming thick and fast. All electric is quite far off but hybrid and big car manufacturers will push things on.
Track days ARE the best thing since sliced bread, until I get a supercharger that is!
Please read my ring story:
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/13/viewthread.php?tid=139152&page=1
Me doing a sub 56sec lap around Brands Indy. I need a geo set up! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHksfvIGB3I
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 12:37 PM |
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quote:
I do think that this type of vehicle will be the short to medium term solution,
They are not a solution to anything other than the centralisation of power generation and cleanup. The same amount of emissions are still produced
unless you're running off clean renewable solutions that don't involve masses of emissions for manufacture.
It's not really a case of being "anti" them, just that they're not the solution to all evils, getting on your bike or walking
is about the only real solution. Stopping air travel. These are the big hitters.
Will they get better - of course. Are they pretty good now - yes, I'd have one if I didn't have long journeys to do regularly. But I do,
and owning two cars becomes financially nonsensical if it's purely for the green-ness!
[Edited on 10/7/14 by coyoteboy]
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Irony
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 01:02 PM |
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We just don't have the infrastructure to make this sort of car work long term. I know there has to be someone to push new technologies but
surely TESLA must realise this.
I am sure most people have run out of fuel at some point. Imagine if everyone drove electric cars that could only be charged at home. Numpties would
be breaking down constantly.
Until a technology comes about that we have existing infrastructure to make use of then I don't think it take off. Even these fusion cars that
run on water you sometimes hear about would be difficult to use on a national scale. Where are we going to get all that extra water from? Not our
existing water supplies thats for certain.
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hughpinder
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 01:37 PM |
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I would love to have an electric car, but I don't see it happening in the 'mass market' any time soon (although if you could get
businesses with their own car parks to instal charging point maybe you could - cars could charge to reduce fluctuations in wind/solar which would be
good).
My reasons for thinking this come from these facts:
The electric grid is loaded to almost full capacity, yet only 1/4 of the UKs energy is distributed that way.
Road transport is 45% of the UKs energy use, just over half to cars, just under half to trucks/trains/air and water, so even if you only wanted to
swap the cars over, the grids capacity would have to double, for all transport it would have to treble.
Lots of people would not have access to charging overnight which will reduce take up (or millions of extension leads across the pavement will be
needed - buy your shares in the manufactureers now).
We would need a huge increase in nuclear power as the only viable way to produce the electricity. A couple of years ago one of the universities
(manchester I think) was payed by the government to estimate how much of the UKs energy could be produced by geothermal, wind, hydro(dams), tidal, and
biofuels. The figures show that we will never be independant of imported energy. Tidal worked out best - large energy available at known times, but
huge environmental impact - I think it was 12% of our energy use simply by damming the Bristol channel - this cuts off a few places from the sea that
are currently sea facing - you know little places like Cardiff, Swansea, Port Talbot and other inconvenient issues. One of the examples I can remember
is the wind calculation - it stated that wind could produce 20% of the Uks energy, if we accepted that the whole country, as far out to sea as it is
technically feasible to build, had windmill spaced at the optimum spacing - that was including mountains, through cities, everywhere.
Anyway, I'm still waiting for the 'Mr Fusion' off back to the future.
Regards
Hugh
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mcerd1
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 02:48 PM |
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whatever the technology there will be some kind of emissions – the metals and plastics used in the car add up pretty fast, the higher the grade the
more energy it took to make and don’t forget to add spares/ replacement parts and batteries
but also the factory making the materials is itself made of concrete/ metal/ glass and probably only has a 50 year lifespan so that all needs
factored in too (concrete, glass and aluminium are all energy intensive to produce)
I'm not against the idea of electric cars as such (assuming ways around the limitations can be found at some point) - but I wish folk would stop
pretending they were squeaky clean 
quote:
Originally posted by swanny
the other bit of the equation for electric vehicles as several have pointed out is that electricity generation via the grid is largely not emission
free. it will only be when micro-generation is more widely adopted and properly integrated with the grid that they could be seen as a 100%
replacement.
there is no such thing as emission free energy
if you take into account all the major factors none of them are truly emission free or sustainable….
solar panels are expensive because they cost a large amount of energy to produce - on top of that they are only 18% efficient at best and produce DC
power at low voltages which you isn't that useful without a transforming it up and converting it to AC (you lose power in this process too)
German businesses have big incentives to use them (paid for out of normal electricity bills) but all its done is drive up the price of electricity for
everyone else
wind power is no were near as efficient as they claim when they build them, ant the cost of building them in energy terms is often more than they ever
make back in there lifetime.
(the big offshore wind turbines have ~160m diameter blades made largely from carbon fibre – there is a huge energy cost in making these)
the 'micro generation' size ones suffer the same issues with low voltage / unsuitable outputs than need processed before they can be
linked to the grid, the worst of these can actually use power to run and give you a net loss of power (some suppliers were even taken to court over
this)
Wave and tidal are a little better, but you can’t just put them anywhere.
And hydro can be good, but your limited to where you can build it and also involves lots of concrete
and you need to add the cost of building and maintaining the power grid itself (lifespan of just 40 years for each bit of it)
Micro generation of any form is a con – mainly because the transformation and transmission losses on low-voltage home based setups are huge
this is why the UK grid's backbone runs at 400,000 volts ! and until it gets to your street most power is still at 11,000 volts.
micro only works if you use it at the source (ideally at or close to the voltage you generate at like a 12/24v lighting etc..) or it can work for
‘off-grid’ locations, but even that often costs more in the long run than just paying for the electricity
These things all sound great to politicians, because they don't care about the facts, they only want something that sounds good enough that
they'll get elected again – but do the sums on total lifecycle costs / energy production and energy used and you’ll find none are really
emissions free
(that goes for nuclear too btw – yeah the reactor might not give any emissions, but what about all the steel, concrete, aluminium etc. it took to
build it, never mind the energy/cost used in producing the fuel etc….)
if you follow this logic with internal combustion then you need to add in the cost of finding, extracting and refining the fuel as well as the costs
of building and running the oil rigs, ships, pipelines, refinery's, tanker lorries and petrol stations - and I'm afraid this is were the
'diesel is as good as electric' argument stops working 
There are some promising looking new reactor designs floating around, some of which even use a high proportion of old nuclear waste as the fuel,
that’s where I think we should be putting the money – but don’t kid yourself into thinking they are totally ‘emissions free’
[Edited on 10/7/2014 by mcerd1]
[Edited on 10/7/2014 by mcerd1]
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 03:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by swanny
also perhaps charging will evolve faster than the batteries. i was speaking with a guy from a large train builder and they are trialling induction
charging for battery trains at stations. so as it stops it charges up. 10 years or so this could be a home solution (park in garage at night and no
need to connect anything) or perhaps even have them installed where cars are stationery? traffic lights? M25?
Solar Roadways are working on the possibility to have said induction in the road, thus pretty much ending the need for battery improvement
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cs3tcr
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 04:15 PM |
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There's a number of them running around here in Vancouver. Nice looking cars, but way too quiet. You can barely hear them coming.
They'll probably do just fine here in BC as we currently don't have any big issues with electrical power as we have lots of dams holding
back a ton of potential energy.
But IMHO, fully electric cars aren't the future. Hybrid technology I think will force out anything electric in the near future unless there is
major breakthroughs in battery technology.
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JoelP
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 07:43 PM |
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There's two quite distinct issues here. Firstly where the energy comes from in the first place, and secondly how it is stored in the car for
use.
As said, there isn't enough capacity in the grid to move to electric cars. This is quite a large hurdle in terms of the investment required to
get rapidly increasing capacity and the infrastructure to move it about. It's tempting to think nuclear is the future but there is the risk of
being tied to an obsolete energy source if there is a breakthrough elsewhere. You can't just pack them up and move on!
The issue of energy storage in the car is also quite a problem. I don't think batteries are the answer. The cost and complexity of designing and
making a battery that is as good as a tank full of hydrocarbons is not to be underestimated. I personally thought that hydrogen fuel cells would be
the way forwards but that seems to have floundered somewhat. Anyone know the latest news regarding fuel cells?
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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Slimy38
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 07:53 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by cs3tcr
There's a number of them running around here in Vancouver. Nice looking cars, but way too quiet. You can barely hear them coming.
I nearly got hit by a Toyota hybrid in a car park for this very reason. I had seen the guy get into his car, but didn't hear the normal engine
start up noise so didn't expect him to pull away so quickly. I couldn't hear him until he got up to about 10mph and his tyres started
whining, by then he was on his way out of the car park.
With regards to energy storage, I wonder how this works;
http://en.oppo.com/products/find7/#find7-features
This new phone can charge to a good percentage at an extremely high speed. If this concept could be scaled up, there may be scope for faster fill ups.
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JoelP
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 08:02 PM |
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On a side note I saw two Vauxhall Amperas today. It's getting popular!
I think in the short term, chargeable electric diesel hybrids are the best option. Maybe a 40bhp diesel engine and batteries with a 50 mile range, so
your normal commute is electric but the little diesel engine can keep you moving long distances.
Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.
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Smoking Frog
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 08:26 PM |
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You may have seen the future, but did you see the batteries? Would love electric power but using batteries seems as comical as a flux capacitor.
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Simon
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| posted on 10/7/14 at 09:09 PM |
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Streets covered with chicken wire might be the solution for electric vehicles 
Quite like the Teslas though. I did hear that charging one was comparable to having your kettle on the go for 27 hours (might be wrong, but hey.. ).
ATB
Simon
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swanny
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| posted on 11/7/14 at 07:41 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by hughpinder
The electric grid is loaded to almost full capacity, yet only 1/4 of the UKs energy is distributed that way.
theres also stuff like this which may reduce demand?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/District_heating
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microgeneration
also stiff like this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passive_house
there is some cause for optiminism i think......
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mcerd1
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| posted on 11/7/14 at 07:54 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by swanny
theres also stuff like this which may reduce demand?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microgeneration
^^ but its so inherently inefficient that you'll never make any significant gains even with massive investment it doesn't get much
better...
[Edited on 11/7/2014 by mcerd1]
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