scootz
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 01:20 PM |
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Brake Lines
What's the general consensus as to the 'best' option....
Fully Braided?
Copper Piped to Braided Ends?
No Real Difference?
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02GF74
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 01:32 PM |
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define by what exactly you mean by "best".
cost? feel? longevity? appearance?
I vote for kunifer hard lines with braided flexible lines.
My reasoning being that the hard lines are never gonna expand without applying superhumna pressure hence you get positive pedal feel - I know, someone
VVV will post that flexi hoses don't expand either but I cannot see that myself- there is plastic tube that is gonna expand before a kunifer one
given with same pressure and the fact that flexi lines bend, the inner must change shape = change in volume.
The braided flexi are supperior over rubber hoses as far as expansion goes but have disadvantage since you cannot tell if the inner is damaged. I
have not heard of anyone having had failure of the inner due to ageing.
Cost wise kunifer is cheaper than braided - maybe lighter too, takes less space and probably can be bent into a tighter radius.
not saying ^^^ is correct, but is what I think.
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adam1985
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 01:32 PM |
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for my brake lines i used that kunifer pipe suposed to be better than copper
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 01:32 PM |
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My personal preference would be solid lines where they are unlikely to move and keep the flexi's where you need them to move.
Cant see the point in running braided throughout due to;
1. Cost,
2. Need to keep the pressure within the pipe where at all possible. I know braided are supposed to bulge less than std rubber but i bet they do reduce
the pressure a bit if overly long).
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JAG
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 01:33 PM |
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Steel pipes with braided/flexibles where necessary.
I wouldn't/didn't use copper purely because of the ease with which the copper pipes can fail via fatigue (due to vibration).
Justin
Who is this super hero? Sarge? ...No.
Rosemary, the telephone operator? ...No.
Penry, the mild-mannered janitor? ...Could be!
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 01:34 PM |
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Another vote for Kunifer. Ive been told its a copper alloy and more suited to marine applications - and hence resists corrosion better. Only slight
downer is that im sure it work hardens faster than straight copper so only likes to be bent once.
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scootz
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 01:39 PM |
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Cheers guys... !
I only ask as I won't have a servo on the car and want the best 'brake-response' possible.
850 (ish) kg and 450 (ish)bhp.
At present, the kit I'm working with has (new) braided hose all the way. I could sell that at a decent price and replace (turning a wee
profit?) with solid lines if it means that I'm going to stop faster.
Just thinking out loud...
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liam.mccaffrey
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 01:40 PM |
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I agree that copper pipe is a no-no
but as has been stated Kunifer is the proper, use intended, brake pipe material and is much less prone to failure either through fatigue (like steel
and copper) or corrosion (like steel)
kunifer hard line with braided flexies for me
Build Blog
Build Photo Album
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 01:41 PM |
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Was it braided right through as supplied by Ultima? If so id probs leave it, assuming they know their stuff and its std practice on their cars.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 01:44 PM |
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In theory braided right through may be OK. Id guess most of our cars are perhaps over braked anyway. The reason why car manufacturers dont do it this
way could as much to do with cost as it is to do with brake performance. Could be worth checking the logic with Ultima if you have contact with the
factory (or on an Ultima forum).
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 01:47 PM |
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still don't like the idea of braided throughout, there's no way it doesn't expand as the braid weave stretches, it'll be much
less than rubber but way more than a metal pipe.
[Edited on 16/10/08 by Mr Whippy]
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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scootz
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 01:48 PM |
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Yep - it's the standard Ultima set-up. Noticed that some guys run servo's on theirs though (and not established if this is the
'norm'... will check).
Thought it best to ask here (still the best place to fish for kit-build knowledge on the net... I'd rather speak to those who've tried
'different' things and have worked out for themselves what works and what doesn't!) 
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 02:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
still don't like the idea of braided throughout, there's no way it doesn't expand as the braid weave stretches, it'll be much
less than rubber but way more than a metal pipe.
[Edited on 16/10/08 by Mr Whippy]
Im with you on this. Personally wouldnt go braided right through, however id be interested to know why Ultima offer this as standard. Im not a brake
expert but they may have done some research.
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02GF74
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 02:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by DarrenW
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
still don't like the idea of braided throughout, there's no way it doesn't expand as the braid weave stretches, it'll be much
less than rubber but way more than a metal pipe.
[Edited on 16/10/08 by Mr Whippy]
Im with you on this. Personally wouldnt go braided right through, however id be interested to know why Ultima offer this as standard. Im not a brake
expert but they may have done some research.
I know if feels wrong, in fact I said I wouldn't do it, but I have looked into this before and although I cannot find the reference, there was a
write up by Goodrich that in effect said there is no noticeable difference between their braided hoses and hard lines as far as hose
expansion.
Therefore Ultima are correct in fitting this.
So why don't I believe? Dunno, it seems wrong.... but I am not alone, see above.
Most likely the cost is why this is not done more often - it has the advantage of fewer joins.
As it is already fitted in the car, I'd leave it.
[Edited on 16/10/08 by 02GF74]
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scootz
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 02:08 PM |
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Just had a quick search on the Ultima forum on Pistonheads... not everyone runs servo's!
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SyKaTurbo
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 02:12 PM |
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i decided to run braided throughout as i think it looks better and neater and i happened to have access to a large supply of lines and fittings
through work 
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02GF74
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 02:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by JAG
I wouldn't/didn't use copper purely because of the ease with which the copper pipes can fail via fatigue (due to vibration).
We hear this ^^^ yet I have yet to hear of copper pipe failing for the above reasons if fitted with sensible distance between mounting points.
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 02:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
quote:
Originally posted by JAG
I wouldn't/didn't use copper purely because of the ease with which the copper pipes can fail via fatigue (due to vibration).
We hear this ^^^ yet I have yet to hear of copper pipe failing for the above reasons if fitted with sensible distance between mounting points.
This is probs why SVA says it has to be supported at max 300mm intervals and not allowed to touch anything.
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 02:52 PM |
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Fatiguing copper pipes are a myth spouted on forums by numpty’s who come out with b$ll$cks like this like they know it as fact -
quote:
"The problem with the copper is that, being soft is less resistant to the frequent pressure cycles involved in braking and is far more
likely to rupture with fatigue than the plated steel bundy tubing. If copper was best for automotive brake lines, then it would be used as OEM by car
manufacturers."
[Edited on 16/10/08 by Mr Whippy]
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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DarrenW
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| posted on 16/10/08 at 03:07 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Fatiguing copper pipes are a myth spouted on forums by numpty’s who come out with b$ll$cks like this like they know it as fact -
quote:
"The problem with the copper is that, being soft is less resistant to the frequent pressure cycles involved in braking and is far more
likely to rupture with fatigue than the plated steel bundy tubing. If copper was best for automotive brake lines, then it would be used as OEM by car
manufacturers."
[Edited on 16/10/08 by Mr Whippy]
Are you really saying that not all that is put down in writing is actually correct? I regularly service my online BS filters for this reason
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britishtrident
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| posted on 19/10/08 at 03:16 PM |
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Normal rubber covered flexies with Kunnifer pipes. --
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JAG
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| posted on 21/10/08 at 11:30 AM |
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quote:
Fatiguing copper pipes are a myth spouted on forums by numpty’s who come out with b$ll$cks like this like they know it as fact
I take offence at this remark.
I never talk rubbish and anyone who knows me will tell you that I am a professional engineer who has worked for a major brake system supplier for 13
years.
I know my brake systems and copper brake pipes are shite that no brake system supplier or vehicle manufaturer has ever fitted as standard for the very
reason I stated.
They fatigue - you pr!ck!
Justin
Who is this super hero? Sarge? ...No.
Rosemary, the telephone operator? ...No.
Penry, the mild-mannered janitor? ...Could be!
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Alan B
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| posted on 21/10/08 at 11:51 AM |
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Ferrari, Lambo, Porsche, etc....hard lines plus flexis
Ultima...flexis right throughout
Who would be the best to mimic?....I think I know.
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