houes buying advice
beaver34 - 6/8/14 at 01:03 PM
in abit of a pickle and could do with some advice
me and the mrs looking to buy our first house, fund one viewed it twice its up at 115k
called to make an offer, got told there was an offer on the table for the asking price
so we offered 1k more
gone and got a mortgage in principal today, we are good for 50% more than the house is worth
went back to estate agents to give them proof to find out the other people have made a higher offer, they wont tell us what it is and they asked us to
put our final offer on the table
we do like the house and its great for us, nice location does not need any work doing, and has a large workshop to keep me happy
just not sure whats the best approach to take going forward, anyone been in this situation before?!
thanks
Charlie_Zetec - 6/8/14 at 01:09 PM
Honestly? Make an offer of what you think it's worth to you - take into account the asking price, surrounding house prices, and any benefits it
may offer (close to work etc. etc.). Unfortunately people can often get drawn into bidding wars where the heart takes precedence over the mind, and
after all, the estate agent won't care as they'll still get their pound of flesh - I mean fee!!! Also have a ceiling price in mind, and
stick to it. Make a final offer, and be prepared to lose out. Hard as it may seem, there's plenty of other properties out there.
Norfolkluegojnr - 6/8/14 at 01:14 PM
All sounds a bit convenient to me. Does the agent know you are keen, or did you play it cool?
Why hasn't the vendor agreed at this price if its above the asking? They are essentially spurring you onto gazumping the 'other
buyer'.
What other properties are available of equivalence, and what are they priced at? How long has it been on the market?
If you guys are FTBs the agent may well be using this to his advantage. Always make sure to stick to what you can afford, and remember the agent works
for the vendor! Its in their interest to drive the price as high as possible.
Who's the agent?
snapper - 6/8/14 at 01:15 PM
It is a painful process
You should look at many and have more than 1 you would be happy with
Try not to get to emotional, estate agents will often use tricks to bump up the bids
You have to be prepared to both bid a bit more and know when to walk away
designer - 6/8/14 at 01:19 PM
This is the 'modern' way of buying houses. They get more than the asking price this way.
beaver34 - 6/8/14 at 01:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Norfolkluegojnr
All sounds a bit convenient to me. Does the agent know you are keen, or did you play it cool?
Why hasn't the vendor agreed at this price if its above the asking? They are essentially spurring you onto gazumping the 'other
buyer'.
What other properties are available of equivalence, and what are they priced at? How long has it been on the market?
If you guys are FTBs the agent may well be using this to his advantage. Always make sure to stick to what you can afford, and remember the agent works
for the vendor! Its in their interest to drive the price as high as possible.
Who's the agent?
its an old cottage that is rare in the area that come up for sale, it was on the market 3 days before we both made offers
i would presume as a seller that he is holding out for the highest offer, the other part are also FTB's
regards the house price and location, in the last 2-3 years we have not found anything we like as much for the money, a lot more we do like but there
are around the 160K granted the houses are larger but non as conveniently located as this property which it 2 miles from both of our works
Norfolkluegojnr - 6/8/14 at 01:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by beaver34
quote:
Originally posted by Norfolkluegojnr
All sounds a bit convenient to me. Does the agent know you are keen, or did you play it cool?
Why hasn't the vendor agreed at this price if its above the asking? They are essentially spurring you onto gazumping the 'other
buyer'.
What other properties are available of equivalence, and what are they priced at? How long has it been on the market?
If you guys are FTBs the agent may well be using this to his advantage. Always make sure to stick to what you can afford, and remember the agent works
for the vendor! Its in their interest to drive the price as high as possible.
Who's the agent?
its an old cottage that is rare in the area that come up for sale, it was on the market 3 days before we both made offers
i would presume as a seller that he is holding out for the highest offer, the other part are also FTB's
regards the house price and location, in the last 2-3 years we have not found anything we like as much for the money, a lot more we do like but there
are around the 160K granted the houses are larger but non as conveniently located as this property which it 2 miles from both of our works
Sounds to me as if the agent has undervalued it to be getting offers above the asking price after three days! 
If other similar (albeit) larger houses are at a 45k premium, I can imagine it will get a fair amount of interest.
Why not ask the agent if you can speak to the vendor directly? alternatively drop a note through the door with your details - often going to the coal
face you'll get a real answer, rather than the agency patter.
That'd be my recommendation.
sdh2903 - 6/8/14 at 01:37 PM
Having just bought a house I feel your pain. I seriously detest estate agents even more after this move, they are on the whole lying slimy gits who
will do anything to get more money out of you. Luckily up here the rules are supposed to prevent gazumping however we were gazumped on a property we
had a verbal agreement on and we were encouraged by an agent to up an offer to beat another. We refused and funnily enough the house is still on the
market 8 weeks later. I took great pleasure in telling the slimy bstard to stick his house.
The house we finally bought and moved into last week was unbelievably painless due to the fact the couple who were selling were fantastic, we sat
round the table and negotiated the sale over a bottle of wine. We got the house for less than it's worth and they got a 4 week completion as they
had bought somewhere else.
The main question you need to ask is what would you be happy to pay? How much over the valuation would you stump up yourself? How long would you stay
in the house to make that money back? If you have the cash and they really are rare to market I say go for it. I would make a final offer on the
condition that the house is immediately withdrawn from the market.
blakep82 - 6/8/14 at 01:41 PM
Just my thought having never bought a house before:
They are happy to tell you an offer has been given at the asking price?
You offer more
They then tell you the offer has been increased but now wont tell you how much?
Me, I'm calling it that there is no other offer, heres why
They tell you theres an offer at the asking price, if you make an offer they know you're interested, and if you make an offer they know it will
be over the asking price. Their job is done.
They tell you an offer has been made, but won't tell you how much, hoping you'll panic and go in well over your original offer, 10k kore
perhaps. Meanwhile, theres no other bids and its all just getting more money from you.
Unless you NEED that house, sit back, and I reckon in a few weeks, they'll be contacting you to say the others have pulled out.
Of course I could be wrong, but I find it strange they'll tell you they've had an offer at the asking price
beaver34 - 6/8/14 at 01:42 PM
quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
Having just bought a house I feel your pain. I seriously detest estate agents even more after this move, they are on the whole lying slimy gits who
will do anything to get more money out of you. Luckily up here the rules are supposed to prevent gazumping however we were gazumped on a property we
had a verbal agreement on and we were encouraged by an agent to up an offer to beat another. We refused and funnily enough the house is still on the
market 8 weeks later. I took great pleasure in telling the slimy bstard to stick his house.
The house we finally bought and moved into last week was unbelievably painless due to the fact the couple who were selling were fantastic, we sat
round the table and negotiated the sale over a bottle of wine. We got the house for less than it's worth and they got a 4 week completion as they
had bought somewhere else.
The main question you need to ask is what would you be happy to pay? How much over the valuation would you stump up yourself? How long would you stay
in the house to make that money back? If you have the cash and they really are rare to market I say go for it. I would make a final offer on the
condition that the house is immediately withdrawn from the market.
thanks
the guy selling it came across as like minded and a nice chap races bikes and has some nice modded 4x4's, he has to decide at the end of the day
who to sell it to, apparently he is happy with the price of the house according to the estate agents
i would pay 120k for it, but really dont want to have to find 5k above its value i could if pushed but dont want to, im thinking of 118k and as you
say have it removed and if its not then we want out and we will have to deal with driving past it daily and not driving up to it!
beaver34 - 6/8/14 at 01:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
Just my thought having never bought a house before:
They are happy to tell you an offer has been given at the asking price?
You offer more
They then tell you the offer has been increased but now wont tell you how much?
Me, I'm calling it that there is no other offer, heres why
They tell you theres an offer at the asking price, if you make an offer they know you're interested, and if you make an offer they know it will
be over the asking price. Their job is done.
They tell you an offer has been made, but won't tell you how much, hoping you'll panic and go in well over your original offer, 10k kore
perhaps. Meanwhile, theres no other bids and its all just getting more money from you.
Unless you NEED that house, sit back, and I reckon in a few weeks, they'll be contacting you to say the others have pulled out.
Of course I could be wrong, but I find it strange they'll tell you they've had an offer at the asking price
thats what it sounds like to me to be fair, can they do that? i presume not but wouldnt be suprised if they did
will see what happens anyway
britishtrident - 6/8/14 at 01:52 PM
Walk away from it only offer what you think is a fair valuation for you as a buyer. the system of buying houses in England is inherently flawed and
open to abuse , if you get into a biding war the only ones that gain are the estate agent and then seller.
One advantage north of the border is the system is slightly better.
Irony - 6/8/14 at 01:52 PM
Estate agents are in my experience scum. They seem to get a kick out of making peoples lives miserable. Buying a house is one of the most stressful
things you can do and they make it worse. Personally I wouldn't offer more than the asking price. I'd probably offer the asking price and
then just leave it for a few days. Maybe the other 'buyer' will mysteriously vanish and then you'll get the house anyway. If this
other buyer pulls out 'because they may not exist' then I would retract your offer and put in a lower one.
A good friend of mine had a house pulled out from under him the day before they were do to exchange (searches and fees already paid) by the seller
as the seller got cold feet and insisted on £10K more at the last minute. My friend told the seller to stuff it. 3 months later it was still on the
market and the estate agent phoned up and said the original offer was still on and when could they exchange for the original price. Cheek. My friend
said no and he'd like to offer £10K less and that offer was excepted.
blakep82 - 6/8/14 at 01:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by beaver34
quote:
Originally posted by blakep82
Just my thought having never bought a house before:
They are happy to tell you an offer has been given at the asking price?
You offer more
They then tell you the offer has been increased but now wont tell you how much?
Me, I'm calling it that there is no other offer, heres why
They tell you theres an offer at the asking price, if you make an offer they know you're interested, and if you make an offer they know it will
be over the asking price. Their job is done.
They tell you an offer has been made, but won't tell you how much, hoping you'll panic and go in well over your original offer, 10k kore
perhaps. Meanwhile, theres no other bids and its all just getting more money from you.
Unless you NEED that house, sit back, and I reckon in a few weeks, they'll be contacting you to say the others have pulled out.
Of course I could be wrong, but I find it strange they'll tell you they've had an offer at the asking price
thats what it sounds like to me to be fair, can they do that? i presume not but wouldnt be suprised if they did
will see what happens anyway
As far as I can work out, theres nothing against it, not legally anyway.
I worked in mortgages for a few years, not claiming to know it all inside out, but there is someone you could ask the legal side of, I assume
you've appointed a solicitor to look over the legal pack before making an offer? (Or does that come later? I'm not 100% sure)
[Edited on 6/8/14 by blakep82]
Norfolkluegojnr - 6/8/14 at 01:59 PM
Speak to the vendor directly. It'll wee the agent off, but who cares - its your money.
Trust me, it'll get you to the bottom of whether this other offer is genuine or not.
micksalt - 6/8/14 at 02:09 PM
Be aware that if you offer over the asking price, and the valuation comes back significantly less, your mortgage company are going to expect you to
stump up any deficit. Happened to us, but after the initial panic we realised we were sufficiently liquid to cover it anyway, and used it to negotiate
a better price too.
twybrow - 6/8/14 at 02:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by micksalt
Be aware that if you offer over the asking price, and the valuation comes back significantly less, your mortgage company are going to expect you to
stump up any deficit. Happened to us, but after the initial panic we realised we were sufficiently liquid to cover it anyway, and used it to negotiate
a better price too.
The valuation is not the same as the asking/selling price. The mortgage company will always value a house lower than the price you paid for it - they
tend to look at how much it would cost them to build a replacment, and how much the minimum value they would get for it if repossessed and sold.
With regard to the OP, that is the joy of the housing market. We out our house on 2 weeks ago, and it has sold in less than a week at just under the
asking price - I kinda wished I had priced it higher, but then I dont want to be greedy and risk losing a good buyer!
The other point for you to make to the agent/seller is your position. You are a good buyer - no chain, keen to move quickly etc. That has a value to
it, and if the other offer is from someone in a chain, then they might look at yours favourably.
To be honest, I would go back and offer your final price, and be prepared that you may have to pay that price, or you may lose it at that price. You
have to stay emottionally detached from the house until it is yours....
We offered on our current house, and the sellers rejected the offer without any counter. We walked away. Two weeks later the agent called to say they
had reconsidered and wanted to take our offer (£30k under the asking price having already been reduced!). I was shocked and unprepared for that phone
call, but it all worked out well in the end! Be prepared to state your position clearly, and then walk away. If it was meant to be, then you will hear
back.
sdh2903 - 6/8/14 at 02:39 PM
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
One advantage north of the border is the system is slightly better.
Sadly not true. its near as damn it just the same now having experienced it both sides of the wall, gazumping is happening all the time. I even know
for a fact that the sealed bid system is corrupt as I have been victim of it, if I could have been bothered with the hassle I would have had the
solicitor in court. Sadly you have to trust the morals of both the vendor and estate agent and hope they are being straight.
The only plus point up here is that home reports are mandatory and if they are less than 6 months old they are used as a valuation by the mortgage
company so you know where you stand when putting in an offer, no separate valuation required.
If you can drum up a conversation with the vendor and he's a straight up guy you will be half way to sorting it one way or another.
micksalt - 6/8/14 at 02:40 PM
Yep, found that out the hard way. With the OP being a first-time buyer I was just making them aware that this sort of thing happens. Thankfully, my
good lady puts massive safety margins in any budget.
Worzey - 6/8/14 at 03:16 PM
It's simple...make your best and final offer and be prepared to miss out.
If you do miss out then its not the house for you. Another one will come along.
We exchanged contracts last week. We received 2 offers for our house. I accepted the lower offer (£3k lower) because it was a first time buyer with
no chain which helped us secure the house we are moving to.
It be worth playing the first-time buyer card on the basis the other buyer isn't in the same situation.
mookaloid - 6/8/14 at 03:33 PM
For those of you who 'seriously detest Estate Agents' or who think 'Estate Agents are scum' clearly don't understand a few
things.
Firstly Estate Agents act for the seller, they have a duty in Law to obtain the best price possible for the seller. if they con't get the best
price then there is a possibility of them being sued for loss by the seller.
Secondly they have a legal obligation to pass all offers to the seller - even if an offer comes in after a sale has been 'agreed'. If an
offer from another party comes in after a sale has been agreed then the Estate Agent has absolutely no choice but to pass this to the seller.
If a seller chooses to accept a later higher offer after previously accepting a lower offer then the Estate Agent cannot be blamed because he was
under a legal obligation to pass the offer on and it definitely isn't the Agent's decision on which offer to accept.
Whilst there are a few 'rotten apples' in the industry, the vast majority of Estate Agents are ordinary decent honest people. Just as in
many other walks of life where most people are ok but there are a few idiots - I don't know - like people who build cars for instance.....
Good luck with the purchase 
sdh2903 - 6/8/14 at 06:12 PM
Mookaloid
I'm just casting opinion due recent experience. In that experience we found more rotten apples than decent fruit. Yes they are governed by lots
of laws and rules and ethics. The problem is the bad ones don't abide by any of them and taint the industry for everyone. The agent who sorted
our purchase in the end was brand new and completely straight with us which is all anyone can ask for.
Keep us updated with how you get on with the house.
spaximus - 6/8/14 at 06:21 PM
My advice is simple, what is it worth to you? I know people who have seen their dream house and refuse to pay an extra £2k only to spend more on
another.
I look at it this way, what is £5k over a life time if it makes you happy. Of it is the home you want, not to make money from then between you decide
what you want to pay and make that offer. Try to speak with the vendor as well to make him want to sell to you over the others.
If you don't get this one, there will be another but if you really want it, if it is the one that ticks all the boxes for both of you, if it the
one that all others will be judged against, if you can afford it then for an extra £5k do it.
cliftyhanger - 6/8/14 at 06:38 PM
My housebuying experiences have all been favourable, with one minor exception when we tried buying our current house (the agent didn't seem to
want to negotiate so we went through another agent, which caused problems for the seller, who was a royal PITA anyway)
We have bought houses at auction (started 25k, guided at 60 and we paid 81k!) sealed bids, really scary, and conventional. One we bought we paid 5k
over asking. The seller had the same offer from somebody in a chain, but was in no hurry so declared if we would match, it was ours. We agreed. And I
have no doubts about the agent, in fact I see him regularly as he is in the same running group as me, and thoroughly decent too.
Anyway. All teh advice about pay what you think is well heeded. In todays market if a house/location is unusual to be up for sale it is extremely
difficult to value. And if it is desirable, then people will be bidding early and high. supply/demand is how it all works. So don't be afraid.
Round here I spoke to the decent agent, he valued a house at 525, eventually exchanged at 595 as several people wanted it. 3-4 bed victorian terrace,
needed a bit of updating..........
mookaloid - 6/8/14 at 07:46 PM
quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
Mookaloid
I'm just casting opinion due recent experience. In that experience we found more rotten apples than decent fruit. Yes they are governed by lots
of laws and rules and ethics. The problem is the bad ones don't abide by any of them and taint the industry for everyone.
I'm sorry to hear that you have had a bad experience, seriously though if you suspect that an Estate Agent has broken the law then the Property
Ombudsman should be consulted. The Law can now ban people from practicing Estate Agency if they are found to be acting illegally.
If on the other hand you just didn't enjoy the experience then perhaps your expectations were unrealistic? House buying and selling is by
it's nature adversarial. It is very stressful - particularly for buyers and they don't get any professional help until an offer has been
accepted - even then it's only for conveyancing. The seller has professional advice from Estate Agents from the word go who negotiate for a
living so is there any wonder buyers don't enjoy it?
From the Agent's point of view when it all goes wrong - due to no fault of the Agent, who has to give the bad news to the disappointed buyer? Yup
the Agent. Naturally the Agent becomes the bad guy in the eyes of the buyer - even though it is unjust. Who would be an Estate Agent?
However if people don't report the rotten ones then they will keep doing the bad stuff and as it's only the customers that find out when
stuff goes wrong it's up to them to do something about it.
I would go as far as to say that if you have genuinely been a victim of a rotten apple and not done anything about it and they are still trading then
you should feel some guilt because they will keep on doing it.
russbost - 7/8/14 at 07:24 AM
Keeping to the OP's point rather than dissing Estate agents in general - it is currently a rising market, I would strongly suggest that for it
only to have been on the market 3 days & to get offers up to or above the asking price it was almost certainly undervalued by the agent in the
first place, if the property is unusual rather than just being a modern box on an estate that is much more likely as they haven't go one 3 doors
down that sold for £X a month ago.
Take a really close look at what else is available & at what price. Can you buy something else with a workshop? If not is there space for one,
what would it cost to erect (to say nothing of the work/hassle), how good is the kitchen? How good is the bathroom? In both cases if they've not
been replaced fairly recently (& to your taste) then you'll be renewing within 5 years if you stay there
Does it have other advantages/disadvantages that won't be there with another property?
Going back to the first paragraph, it is a rising market &, broadly spaeking likely to continue slowly rising for at least the next year or two,
hence buying now even at a slight premium might be better than waiting for another property to come along only to find that the asking price is £5k
higher to start with.
Finally, vote with your head not your heart, just because you or the missus have fallen in love with a place won't make it worth more when you
come to sell.
Good luck, hope all goes well!
mcerd1 - 7/8/14 at 11:10 AM
as above all you can do is walk away if the price goes over what 'you' think its worth
quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
One advantage north of the border is the system is slightly better.
Sadly not true. its near as damn it just the same now having experienced it both sides of the wall, gazumping is happening all the time. I even know
for a fact that the sealed bid system is corrupt as I have been victim of it, if I could have been bothered with the hassle I would have had the
solicitor in court.
sounds like you had more than your fair share of problems 
the difference up here is that you can take the solicitor to court (well if you've got proof at least) - down south there is nothing you
can do as no rules are being broken...
but I think the best bit of our system is how difficult it is to back out of the deal - none of this 'the buyer pulled out 1 hour before the keys
were due to be exchanged' carry-on
personally I've only bought 1 house and I made the first offer (a bit of a cheeky one)
but it didn't go to a closing date (so no sealed bids) as the seller was desperate, so we did a little back and forward and agreed a decent price
with no real fuss and had it all signed and dates set by the end of the same week 
But the solicitors on both sides were good reputable ones that are well known around here....
[Edited on 7/8/2014 by mcerd1]
[Edited on 7/8/2014 by mcerd1]
mark chandler - 7/8/14 at 11:41 AM
I have never had a problem with estate agents myself, apart from the large chunk of money they want for a sale!
Solicitors, that's a different matter so pay the extra for a decent one and hope the other party do likewise, last house we sold the buyers used
the cheapest solicitor they could find, we were ready to go end November, ended up moving mid January as the buyers solicitors could not sort
themselves out
As above, fix a price in your head, as a first time buyer you have advantage over chains which can be a nightmare so a lower offer can still be
preferable.
Mr Whippy - 7/8/14 at 11:51 AM
As with cars don't just jump in and buy the first thing you see
Personally I wouldn't touch an old cottage again as their nothing but endless problems, look at it less with a romantic eye and more like house
equivalent of an old banger bodged up with body filler that’s dodged the scrapyard...
ravingfool - 7/8/14 at 01:11 PM
Haha, interesting thread and some pretty helpful guidance for the most part.
Unfortunately there is no perfect way of dealing with these things because a property is only worth what a willing buyer is prepared to pay for it but
the willing seller doesn't have to offer the property for the lowest amount they could afford to sell it for and they employ an estate agent to
manage and assist with negotiations on their behalf.
At the end of the day you do need to treat house purchases a little like commercial negotiations but obviously there are non-financial aspects which
you can consider as they directly impact upon the value of the property to YOU.
If you're buying for yourself to live there for the foreseeable though I don't think it needs to be too difficult; educated guess at realist
value of the property plus or minus specific values of the property which would be a bonus or otherwise to you living there. Try and get points of
view from a few other people that are more experienced in buying houses if you can - parents etc have their uses - and don't get carried away
with the first place that ticks your boxes and try not to be scared to let one go because there will always be another house on the market
eventually.
Estate agents - there are good and bad. Be sceptical and take their comments with a pinch of salt. I expect to offer below asking price and work up
a little through negotiation; it's a complete nonsense that people are going in offering the asking price at the moment and then being bullied up
by agents! Things seem to be cooling a little in the market although in some places you have first time buyers jumping through hoops because of the
shortage of property on the market.
Solicitors - not all the same; and watch out for the really low headline prices because sadly they're almost entirely a con. On top of providing
generally limited service, many add additional fees for things which any solicitor worth their salt will tell you are simply part of the conveyancing
process and should be included in the quoted rate. Stamp duty return sir? Legal requirement you say? Well certainly, that will only be an additional
£150 + VAT for us to submit on your behalf...
(Aside - the above fee structures have come in for a lot of criticism in the legal profession and rightly so but many firms continue to charge like
this so be careful who you appoint and do read the quote carefully before appointing a solicitor. Use personal recommendations.)
beaver34 - 7/8/14 at 01:28 PM
thanks for all the input guys it has helped
took it onboard and we offered £122,250 which has been declined and the other offer accepted of which they wont say if it was higher or lower
anyway atleast we know now and can get on with life and looking forward to our 3,500 mile euro road trip next week
James - 7/8/14 at 03:17 PM
Great news!!!
Why? Because you'll find somewhere better!
When I think back to all the places I looked around and put offers on... I'm soooo pleased we ended up where we did!
There's always somewhere else to buy!
Good luck with the house hunting!
James
P.S. Ravingfool, I have PM'd you.
[Edited on 7/8/14 by James]
sdh2903 - 7/8/14 at 04:59 PM
My dad's always saying "what's for you, won't go by you". And it's true. After missing out on 3 houses we have ended up
with the best of all for a better price.
Enjoy the road trip and happy house hunting.