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Author: Subject: Underpinning
Norfolkluegojnr

posted on 13/8/15 at 01:52 PM Reply With Quote
Underpinning

Seeing as you guys know everything, I thought I'd ask

Me and the other half are looking to buy a house, and the searches have revealed it was underpinned in 1994.

Firstly, is this something to be concerned about? does it affect the value of the house?

Obviously we have a solicitor on the case, but what questions need to be asked if any? Anyone bought a house in this instance?

Thoughts appreciated.

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pewe

posted on 13/8/15 at 02:32 PM Reply With Quote
I'm no builder but that's probably good, rather than bad news.

If it needed underpinning it's because the ground on which it was built was either unstable or liable to movement.
Question is are there any visible cracks on the outside or inside walls?
Small cracks aren't normally a problem but bigger ones can be.
Rule of thumb - if you can get your hand in them start to worry.
If not 21 years after the underpinning sounds as if it was a proper job.

Also is there a history of land-slip/ movement in the area? There has to be a reason it was underpinned so you need to find out why.
Let's say other houses are falling into the sea or local disused quarry will underpinning help if it approaches yours?

Solicitors won't normally give advice on that sort of thing and mortgage surveys are only looking at whether they can recoup their investment if you default.

Since buying a house is one of the largest purchases you're likely to make my advice would be to have your own independent survey carried out on the whole property by a structural engineer/surveyor, specifically asking about the underpinning.
That may cost you c.£400 but gives peace of mind as well as come-back if the survey turns out to be incorrect.

As far as value is concerned it may have a detrimental effect on the value when you come to re-sell - some may view underpinning as positive, some negative. It hasn't made you run a mile so just think how you will feel if the survey comes out OK and translate that to any other prospective purchaser.

HTH.
Cheers, Pewe10

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cliftyhanger

posted on 13/8/15 at 02:39 PM Reply With Quote
A decent estate agent will know if there are subsidence issues in an area, but also check with an insurance company. They may load the premium if there may be issues, whether or not they have been sorted (knowing insurance companies!)

The better halfs parent house was underpinned many years ago, well the extension. It had been OK for years but one dry summer it moved a bit, solution was teh underpinning and nothing since (probably in 1976? so 40 years now)

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Jeano

posted on 13/8/15 at 02:58 PM Reply With Quote
Hey as a qualified surveyor I think the thing to note is to be cautious. There is a risk involved.

Underpinning could be for a number of reasons, on older houses it could be that the foundations that were used were not deep enough to support the structure of the house, it could be the earth strength has changed for geological reasons. For it to have been repaired it would had to been showing risk to the structural integrity of the building not just some minor cracks. All these repairs would have been repaired at the time it was underpinned.

If it was reported then it would have been inspected fully and the necessary repairs completed. So should be ok.

Im currently working on the refurbishment of the old Southgate town hall (north London) we have underpinned 20% of the building to ensure it has the strength for the next 100 years. However it stood for 100 years fine on its own, in this situation engineers these days are very cautious compared how they used to be so therefore they increase the safety factor massively. However on a domestic property they would usually underpin due to a failure.
1994 I would recommend seeing if you could get a copy of the report and review it yourself to ensure you are satisfied.
Im sure your mortgage company will insist on an indepedant building survey as part of there process also.
It depends on where your moving and the £££ I would pay the same money for a property with no issues as it has more of a risk than one without as it has historic issues. However as properties are in short supply in some areas of the country I would also take into account that.
Saying all that it’s a personal choice. Good luck!





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ravingfool

posted on 13/8/15 at 03:00 PM Reply With Quote
In my opinion, pewe has exactly the right idea

It really should be a positive as there's some risk of subsidence for most properties and if it has happened and been rectified properly that should be good (ETA I'm not a surveyor though, hence my comments below saying you should get proper advice)

but what you want is:

Full copies of the relevant paperwork (which should include surveys, and completion certificates once the work was completed).

And you want that as early as possible in the transaction so you can show this to your surveyor and get him to take it into account when he inspects the property. It's the surveyors professional opinion which is going to be the most important thing for you and you need to raise your questions with them.

[Edited on 13/8/15 by ravingfool]

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adithorp

posted on 13/8/15 at 03:05 PM Reply With Quote
It should be a good thing as Pewe says but...

My girlfriend was looking at a house (made an offer) that turned out to be under-pinned. No new insurer would touch it. They all said the existing insurers had to offer cover butit turned out the owner had let the insurance lapse so they wouldn't cover it either.





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Norfolkluegojnr

posted on 13/8/15 at 03:53 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
It should be a good thing as Pewe says but...

My girlfriend was looking at a house (made an offer) that turned out to be under-pinned. No new insurer would touch it. They all said the existing insurers had to offer cover butit turned out the owner had let the insurance lapse so they wouldn't cover it either.



I'd heard this from a colleague too. Did she end up buying or not?

Keep the feedback coming guys - having spoken with the mortgage comp, they will lend, subject to the survey. I've asked what paperwork they can provide so we'll have to wait and see.

Jeano - thanks for the advice. I was hoping an engineer might pop up. So presuming we can see the orginal paperwork, what am I looking for?

Really hacked off with the whole thing now TBH And to cap it off, my lambda sensor has stopped working...

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adithorp

posted on 13/8/15 at 04:03 PM Reply With Quote
No she withdrew the offer. As oon as she mentioned under-pinning the insurance co's virtuall slammed the phone down. Crazy when it was a problem that had been fixed.
Shame as it was a nice house in a great spot... and there was room to build a huge garage/workshop.





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Norfolkluegojnr

posted on 13/8/15 at 04:05 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
No she withdrew the offer. As oon as she mentioned under-pinning the insurance co's virtuall slammed the phone down. Crazy when it was a problem that had been fixed.
Shame as it was a nice house in a great spot... and there was room to build a huge garage/workshop.


Thats part of the problem. this place has a double garage and I ont want that to skew my normally ruthless decision making

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russbost

posted on 13/8/15 at 04:15 PM Reply With Quote
Check that current buildings insurance is in place, the insurance co. are obliged to continue to offer cover on the house. We bought the house we live in now, had been underpinned, & were with same insurer for years, reasonable premiums, but does stop you shopping around. About 12 years back Barclays wanted to quote, we said, "house has been underpinned", as it was more than 10 years previous they weren't bothered & quoted us a better price than previous insurer, it has since needed further underpinning (I suspect the job was not very thorough first time around), was quite a lot of hassle, but we actually did quite well out of it with stuff being replaced we were going to replace anyway! That was about 5 years ago, I very much doubt anything will move again, but it was built in 1922 on sand & essex clay on a steep hill which has several springs in the area plus loads of woodland, so it's not like we didn't know there was a possibility of movement.

Would I do it again knowing what I do now, yes probably if the house was exactly what I wanted & at a sensible price. You can certainly use the underpinning as a bargaining point, maybe get a little off the price!





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mark chandler

posted on 13/8/15 at 04:41 PM Reply With Quote
I had a nice house that had been underpinned, an oak tree blew over in the 87 storm dislodging the ground.

House was maybe 3/4 the price of an equivilent as the owner found it hard to sell and needed a quick deal.

The downside, special insurance cost maybe £1,200 a year, would have been £300 otherwise.

Regards Mark

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Norfolkluegojnr

posted on 14/8/15 at 07:27 AM Reply With Quote
Thanks again all. useful information, we'll get some insurance quotes.

The vendor clains to know nothing about it, but she did inherit the house from her father (possible I suppose). Waiting now to see what information they can provide, but after three months of wrangling it might be a deal breaker.

On the up side its a beautiful summers day......oh wait.........

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adithorp

posted on 14/8/15 at 08:17 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Norfolkluegojnr
Thanks again all. useful information, we'll get some insurance quotes.

The vendor clains to know nothing about it, but she did inherit the house from her father (possible I suppose). Waiting now to see what information they can provide, but after three months of wrangling it might be a deal breaker.

On the up side its a beautiful summers day......oh wait.........


If she claims not to know anything about it, then I'd be very suspicious. It may be that the current insurers haven't been informed when she took out the policy. They might not be obliged to continue cover if thats the case.

The vendor Angie was buying from said the same, then changed her tune when it looked like the deal might fall through. Then said the insurance knew about it and it turned out they did but after taking out the policy she'd failed to make any payments, so they'd cancelled the policy almost 12mths earlier. As I remember they did offer cover at a very high premium (as a special case) so Ang' reduced her offer but the owner refused to budge on price, claiming it was already reduced because of the underpinning (that she knew nothing about initially!) She walked away then, wondering what else they were lying about? Was stillon the market 2 years later.





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Norfolkluegojnr

posted on 14/8/15 at 08:47 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
quote:
Originally posted by Norfolkluegojnr
Thanks again all. useful information, we'll get some insurance quotes.

The vendor clains to know nothing about it, but she did inherit the house from her father (possible I suppose). Waiting now to see what information they can provide, but after three months of wrangling it might be a deal breaker.

On the up side its a beautiful summers day......oh wait.........


If she claims not to know anything about it, then I'd be very suspicious. It may be that the current insurers haven't been informed when she took out the policy. They might not be obliged to continue cover if thats the case.

The vendor Angie was buying from said the same, then changed her tune when it looked like the deal might fall through. Then said the insurance knew about it and it turned out they did but after taking out the policy she'd failed to make any payments, so they'd cancelled the policy almost 12mths earlier. As I remember they did offer cover at a very high premium (as a special case) so Ang' reduced her offer but the owner refused to budge on price, claiming it was already reduced because of the underpinning (that she knew nothing about initially!) She walked away then, wondering what else they were lying about? Was stillon the market 2 years later.



Thats exactly the mind set we are in. What else hasnt been disclosed? Its a great house, in the right area, but I now dont trust the vendor at all. I guess we'll have to wai and see what the paperwork and insurance companies say.

On the up side, there is very little subsidence in our area (Norfolk) so its most likely drainage or tree related, but its the image of it i'm worried about - how difficult will it be to sell in the future? I guess its impossible to say.


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adithorp

posted on 14/8/15 at 09:13 AM Reply With Quote
Be prepared for the abuse when your investigations spoil her chances of selling.

[Edited on 14/8/15 by adithorp]





"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire

http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/

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Norfolkluegojnr

posted on 14/8/15 at 09:15 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
Be prepared for the obuse when your investigations spoil her chances of selling.


Oh, i'll relish it.

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ravingfool

posted on 14/8/15 at 03:02 PM Reply With Quote
FYI, if you end up spending money out investigating things which really should have been disclosed straight away then you may also have a claim against the agents which you could take to the ombudsman (for free). The ombudsman is happily jumping all over agents at the moment (to their collective fear - in the case of bad agents - and joy - in the case of the better agents, as I understand it).

The agents are now under a legal duty essentially to disclose appropriate information and not to withhold information and they can be in trouble even if the seller is the one holding out.

Obviously depends on the circumstances and I'm not advocating trying to make money out of the agents just for the sake of it, but if they've let you down on this point then you may have a claim against them whether the transaction proceeds or otherwise.

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Norfolkluegojnr

posted on 14/8/15 at 03:30 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ravingfool
FYI, if you end up spending money out investigating things which really should have been disclosed straight away then you may also have a claim against the agents which you could take to the ombudsman (for free). The ombudsman is happily jumping all over agents at the moment (to their collective fear - in the case of bad agents - and joy - in the case of the better agents, as I understand it).

The agents are now under a legal duty essentially to disclose appropriate information and not to withhold information and they can be in trouble even if the seller is the one holding out.

Obviously depends on the circumstances and I'm not advocating trying to make money out of the agents just for the sake of it, but if they've let you down on this point then you may have a claim against them whether the transaction proceeds or otherwise.



A valid point, and although I suspect they didnt know, ignorance isnt an excuse in a professional capacity.

I'm hoping it wont come to that - they certainly sounded concerned when we rang them last night! Any costs incurred will be deducted from what we offer too.

So bl**dy frustrating. makes me want to live in a tent.

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