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Author: Subject: Washing machine gone a knacker - John Lewis not really interested...
gregs

posted on 22/9/15 at 08:09 PM Reply With Quote
Washing machine gone a knacker - John Lewis not really interested...

Replaced 13year old AEG washing machine 2 years ago with a Bosch machine from John Lewis.

Yesterday, 26months after getting it, it threw one of the concrete dampers off the tub shearing a boss off the tub (plastic) leaving it attached at the other end to smash against the casing.

Washing machine is 2 months out of warranty.

Wife phoned John Lewis this morning with a basic understanding of Sales of Goods act and got well and truly fobbed off - basically with - "well it was ok when we gave it to you!", but they did offer possible 'good will' towards the repair if we get a Bosch engineer out to inspect it.

I phoned them back shortly afterwards, explained that having purchased from them we had a contract with them for the goods to be of satisfactory quality and that a £400 washing machine self distructing after two years doesn't meet that requirement and I wasn't excepting 'good will' as they just needed to repair it... they wrote this down.

However, they are still saying that I need to get a Bosch engineer out to look at it - which will cost £95.

I know I'm on a solid footing in regards to the sale of goods act, but I am hesitant to put more money into it if it's likely to drag on. We also have two under 5's so washing is mounting up.

So firstly - don't believe the John Lewis hype - first time I've needed help and they're as useless as the rest.
Secondly - any advise?

I'm almost tempted to remove the weight entirely and then keep using it till it dies...

Greg

[Edited on 22/9/15 by gregs]

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perksy

posted on 22/9/15 at 08:23 PM Reply With Quote
Sadly Bosch machines aren't what they used to be and iirc they are made in Poland now

Most of them have integral bearings within the drum aswell and ours was about 4 years old when that failed
Spoke to the engineer and he said Bosch "ain't what they used to be mate.."


I seem to remember there's a 'White goods' forum on the net and a few engineers hang out on their who might be able to offer some advice ?

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PSpirine

posted on 22/9/15 at 08:37 PM Reply With Quote
Will second view on latest Bosch consumer grade stuff...

Had an old Bosch washing machine and dishwasher and they were bombproof. New ones are flimsier and more unreliable (I've had a couple different ones).


However, with JL... Can I suggest you try to get in touch with head office and let them know. In my experience JL customer service has been good for returns etc., but can vary as there's a couple of branches I think are a bit of a let down.

Be calm, let them know it's reasonable to expect the washing machine to work without complete failure for more than 2 years (+ 2 months) as that is why you purchased a reputable premium brand product from a well regarded shop having heard of their great customer service from friends and family etc. Say that you would like a repair or replacement (be specific about what you want).


Depending on your social media presence, often worth a tweet to them to ask for help.


In my experience with poor product/service from corporations, asking nicely for reasonable resolution often results in goodwill etc.


Hope you get it resolved!

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BenB

posted on 22/9/15 at 09:55 PM Reply With Quote
We had a problem with something from J L. Despite it being a month old they told us it had to go via the Manafacturers. A quick "bs my contract is with you" had it sorted. Speak to the organ grinder. ..... what's the email of head office????
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benchmark51

posted on 22/9/15 at 09:58 PM Reply With Quote
I had a similar experience with an electric drill, 1 week out of warranty and kapput! Bosch didn't want to know so I have steered clear of Bosch tools for 25 years now. The replacement B+D drill lasted years and was half the price. All my Makita and Festool tools have been good too. I bought a second hand Bosch washing machine off my mate for £50 and although not a looker is still going 5 years later.
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ste

posted on 22/9/15 at 10:03 PM Reply With Quote
If you don't have twitter, sign up and tweet onto their page about your grievance, they usually don't like the mass audience seeing this and like to show how great they are to their followers.
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v8kid

posted on 23/9/15 at 03:57 AM Reply With Quote
It's not John Lewis fault after all the washing machine was made by Bosch as and you had the option to extend the warranty

We take a risk when we buy stuff that it is going to brake sooner or later. If we can't afford to replace it we take out extended warranties.

My view and that of many others is that the extended warranties are poor value and I'd rather take the risk. However having taken the risk you cant winge when the gamble is lost.

Bite the bullet and move on.😊

Cheers!





You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a chainsaw

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gregs

posted on 23/9/15 at 04:57 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
It's not John Lewis fault after all the washing machine was made by Bosch as and you had the option to extend the warranty

We take a risk when we buy stuff that it is going to brake sooner or later. If we can't afford to replace it we take out extended warranties.

My view and that of many others is that the extended warranties are poor value and I'd rather take the risk. However having taken the risk you cant winge when the gamble is lost.

Bite the bullet and move on.😊

Cheers!


Actually it is john lewis fault as they broke a contract by selling cr@p goods.... Sales of goods act is pretty clear on that. And it's their choice how to deal with it.

You are right that we take a risk when buying goods - but quality is inferred by price (sales of goods act) and lasting 26 mths ain't quality. So I view the risk as it might only last 6 yrs... If it was a beko from argos at £200 I would take a slightly different view.

Bosch Facebook page makes interesting reading with lots of unhappy customers getting fobbed off or offered expensive 'engineer' visits.

Have most certainly learnt a lesson to avoid bosch in the future.

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joneh

posted on 23/9/15 at 06:39 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gregs
quote:
Originally posted by v8kid
It's not John Lewis fault after all the washing machine was made by Bosch as and you had the option to extend the warranty

We take a risk when we buy stuff that it is going to brake sooner or later. If we can't afford to replace it we take out extended warranties.

My view and that of many others is that the extended warranties are poor value and I'd rather take the risk. However having taken the risk you cant winge when the gamble is lost.

Bite the bullet and move on.😊

Cheers!


Actually it is john lewis fault as they broke a contract by selling cr@p goods.... Sales of goods act is pretty clear on that. And it's their choice how to deal with it.

You are right that we take a risk when buying goods - but quality is inferred by price (sales of goods act) and lasting 26 mths ain't quality. So I view the risk as it might only last 6 yrs... If it was a beko from argos at £200 I would take a slightly different view.

Bosch Facebook page makes interesting reading with lots of unhappy customers getting fobbed off or offered expensive 'engineer' visits.

Have most certainly learnt a lesson to avoid bosch in the future.


Not sure I agree they're at fault as at time of sale, the machine was fine. They don't know how you've used the machine for the last two years or if it's remained installed correctly. Probably why, and quiet fairly they want an engineer report to find the source of the fault.

If it were me, I'd order the parts of eBay and repair it myself, for less than the engineers report.

[Edited on 23/9/15 by joneh]

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cliftyhanger

posted on 23/9/15 at 07:07 AM Reply With Quote
This is always difficult. Trying to go down the sale of goods act route is time consuming, and I expect all retailers would expect a report rather than cave in instantly.
Do not expect a quick resolution!
FWIW we have been buying the very cheapest washing machines plus paying for a 5yr warranty for out 3 student rental places. Cost £300 including warranty.
I think one machine lasted 14 years, no mechanical breakdown but the front panel rusted through. 1 had repairs under warranty, one went wrong at 4 1/2 years, no parts available so refunded PP! 2 new machines purchased as broke down after the 5 years (that includes the rusty one)
Not bad in 20 years.....

Even if machine last exactly 5 years, it only costs £5 a month, very reasonable.

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spaximus

posted on 23/9/15 at 07:15 AM Reply With Quote
You are correct that you contract is with John Lewis, however the contract clearly states that you have a warranty that is for a period of just two years. It has passed their contractual obligation with you.

Now one could argue, as you are doing that the unit should last longer than two years and two months and I would agree, but if this was to end up in court you would have to prove that the fault was due to a manufacturing defect which was a direct result of Bosch producing a product which was not fit for purpose.

Before you can go any further you will have to give Bosch a chance to look at the fault and if that means paying a charge that is deemed reasonable. If they accept the fault is caused by something of their making then they would be duty bound to refund said charge. John Lewis are not technically qualified to make decisions on behalf of Bosch.
Bosch may claim that the fault is due to misuse, overloading is the usual cause, but they will need to give you a full technical report which you can then challenge after having a consulting engineer to inspect the said unit who may disagree.

My advise is to appeal to John Lewis at a higher level but as they have already offered that a good will gesture might be forth coming, they would be seen as reasonable. But you will need to let the bosch engineer see it and fight from there.

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v8kid

posted on 23/9/15 at 07:24 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by gregs

Actually it is john lewis fault as they broke a contract by selling cr@p goods.... Sales of goods act is pretty clear on that. And it's their choice how to deal with it.

You are right that we take a risk when buying goods - but quality is inferred by price (sales of goods act) and lasting 26 mths ain't quality. So I view the risk as it might only last 6 yrs... If it was a beko from argos at £200 I would take a slightly different view.

Bosch Facebook page makes interesting reading with lots of unhappy customers getting fobbed off or offered expensive 'engineer' visits.

Have most certainly learnt a lesson to avoid bosch in the future.


There is a point that you would expect an expensive machine to be more reliable but compare washing machines to cars - with cars the expensive ones are in fact less reliable offering more features to entice a higher sales value so it is not so reasonable to assume that a BRAND infers added reliability.

I agree avoid Bosch like the plague from your experience, but others swear by them

Aint it worth trying to fix it yourself these things are not as tricky as they first appear.

On another note we bought a cheap unbranded John Lewis washing machine 5 years ago as a distress purchase (old one broke and so were we) and it has performed faultlessly - win some - loose some

Cheers!





You'd be surprised how quickly the sales people at B&Q try and assist you after ignoring you for the past 15 minutes when you try and start a chainsaw

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r1_pete

posted on 23/9/15 at 08:07 AM Reply With Quote
We came to the conclusion a few years ago we should treat such goods as disposable, and now buy the cheapest we can, and any service beyond the warranty period we treat as a bonus.

Last washing machine we bought was a Samsung, it was on a managers special half price at £150 odd, sales person asks if we want to put the saving towards an extended warranty, Mrs replies no I'll save it towards my next washing machine.......

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Staple balls

posted on 23/9/15 at 09:07 AM Reply With Quote
ISTR that the sales of goods act covers white goods for 6 years, given that'd be a reasonable lifespan for such things.

But yeah, 2 years isn't reasonable for a washer, even with heavy use. We have a 3 year old daewoo washing machine that cost £200, I think. cheapest 5kg one we could get at the time, I overload it almost daily, occasionally make it puke soap, and put things that should not go in there, in there. Hasn't died yet.

Dishwasher is old enough to be in high school, has burned a few drain pumps, and the actuator on the heater pump has packed up, so that's in need or surgery when I get chance.

I'm pretty sure our last tumble drier was triggers broom, the only thing original was the case and the drum, everything else had been replaced twice.

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Theshed

posted on 23/9/15 at 09:18 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by spaximus
You are correct that you contract is with John Lewis, however the contract clearly states that you have a warranty that is for a period of just two years. It has passed their contractual obligation with you.

Now one could argue, as you are doing that the unit should last longer than two years and two months and I would agree, but if this was to end up in court you would have to prove that the fault was due to a manufacturing defect which was a direct result of Bosch producing a product which was not fit for purpose.

Before you can go any further you will have to give Bosch a chance to look at the fault and if that means paying a charge that is deemed reasonable. If they accept the fault is caused by something of their making then they would be duty bound to refund said charge. John Lewis are not technically qualified to make decisions on behalf of Bosch.
Bosch may claim that the fault is due to misuse, overloading is the usual cause, but they will need to give you a full technical report which you can then challenge after having a consulting engineer to inspect the said unit who may disagree.

My advise is to appeal to John Lewis at a higher level but as they have already offered that a good will gesture might be forth coming, they would be seen as reasonable. But you will need to let the bosch engineer see it and fight from there.


Hope you will take this the right way but the first sentence and second paragraph of this is legally..... complete tosh. The practical advice however seems about right.

A contract for the sale of goods contains an implied term that the goods are of "satisfactory quality". It is not possible to contract out of that with a "consumer". Any warranty is an additional right rather than a limit to the rights that the sale of goods act provides.
The definition of satisfactory quality is as follows:

(2A) For the purposes of this Act, goods are of satisfactory quality if they meet the standard that a reasonable person would regard as satisfactory, taking account of any description of the goods, the price (if relevant) and all the other relevant circumstances.

(2B)For the purposes of this Act, the quality of goods includes their state and condition and the following (among others) are in appropriate cases aspects of the quality of goods—
(a)fitness for all the purposes for which goods of the kind in question are commonly supplied,
(b)appearance and finish,
(c)freedom from minor defects,
(d)safety, and
(e)durability.

The reference to "price" and "durability" would assist the OP in any claim/dispute. That said it is not necessarily the case that a breakdown after 2 years would mean that the goods were not of satisfactory quality when sold. JL might well say that the machine has been running 24/7 and what do you expect. An issue like this would normally be determined in court proceedings on expert evidence - and cost more than a new machine!

Your contract is with JL and not with Bosch. The OP is entirely right on this. Only if the machine injures somebody would there be a claim against Bosch. Never ever be fobbed off with a "you need to take this up with the manufacturer" or "need to claim under the warranty" line it is nonsense.

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craig1410

posted on 23/9/15 at 12:45 PM Reply With Quote
While the above post might be technically correct, a lot of the terms mentioned are inherently subjective (eg. "reasonable" ) and so you won't know for sure if you will ultimately be successful in your claim.

If I was you I would find a washing machine from John Lewis that you like (btw, I'd strongly recommend an LG Direct Drive unit) and come up with a figure for a goodwill gesture that you think is reasonable (there's that word again). Then write to JL and ask them to supply that machine for whatever price the RRP-Goodwill comes to. I'd shoot for between £150 and £200 as the goodwill value. Make it clear that you would accept this as a final settlement and give them a time limit to reply (e.g. 7 days) after which time you will be continuing legal action.

If they come back with any goodwill gesture worth taking I would just take it and move on.

FYI, this is the one we bought (discontinued now) it's really excellent. http://www.lg.com/uk/washing-machines/lg-F1481TD-white-washing-machine

Also, espares.co.uk are good if you need spare parts to fix your existing machine.

Good luck,
Craig.


[Edited on 23/9/2015 by craig1410]

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mark chandler

posted on 23/9/15 at 05:57 PM Reply With Quote
£400 washing machine is not high range, unfortunate it's failed but....

If you had paid £700 for the JL home brand then I would be expecting 5 years service from it, we have a Samsung that cost £900 I think and came with a 7 year guarantee so relatively they are similar cost/life span..

NB. We did buy a JL machine 6 years ago, went wrong twice inside guarantee and it was repaired without a quibble, gave it to my daughter as she needed a small machine (this was a washer/dryer and it has subsequently been fine after having a new water pump fitted.

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JoelP

posted on 23/9/15 at 06:34 PM Reply With Quote
Plastic drums on washers are a rubbish idea. I've had one break in the past.

My latest machine is a Siemens, 5 year warranty for £430. When the give you a 5 year warranty, it's probably high enough quality that you don't actually need the warranty.


I'd agree that 2 years is an unacceptable life for a 400 pound machine. My candy lasted longer than that.

Best approach might be to put in writing that you think it unacceptable, and tell them if they don't make an offer then you'll buy another and add it to the bill.





Beware! Bourettes is binfectious.

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