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Author: Subject: Some ST170/Zetec engine questions
silky16v

posted on 28/5/13 at 04:15 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by baz-R
quote:
Originally posted by silky16v
quote:
Originally posted by scutter
The ST VVC isn't just on/off, otherwise why would Ford give the car a seperate ECU to control the VVC and Inlet lengths. the engine oil pressure is set by the relief valve in the pump and the solenoid lets varying abouts of that pressure to advance the pulley around, a fella on Turbosport got his max power on the rollers at something in the region of 45-50 degs rather than 60degs that came from just switching it on.

Apart from that, yes the ports are taller as when I put the ST inlet on a blacktop it kept sucking the O ring seals into the inlet tract until I refitted the old seals.

Regards Dan.


correct the VCT is controlled by the cam phase sensor, rpm, tps and other sensors it is a continually altering the position of the camshaft


so all of thoes reputable tuneing co.'s and meny experts in the aftermarket field are all wrong then?
i wanted to use a st170 with full vvc control with aftermarket ecu but everyone said it cannot be done as ford do it on and off!

inlet lengths are of no interst as i wanted to run throttle bodies

now if anyone can give me info on how to actualy do it and how it realy works im all ears as it is an engine upgrade im intersted in

[Edited on 28/5/13 by baz-R]


yes the information you have been given is wrong if you want to speak to anyone about the ST170 try Will Pedley

you need the minimum ecu that has cam phase and PWM control to operate the VCT correctly, the guy above wrote his uni dissertation on the ST170 engine, i've just got off the phone to him having a long convo about my new ST170 engine and best way to get the max BHP out of it

he's says 200+ bhp is possible with a standard st170 engine, with ported exhaust port and polished inlet, using oem cams with full VCT control, but you need the ecu that can do this which is around 1000

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Rob Allison

posted on 28/5/13 at 10:29 PM Reply With Quote
Money is better spent on getting longer duration cams. Then you will see around the 250bhp mark from the engine.






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silky16v

posted on 28/5/13 at 10:45 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Allison
Money is better spent on getting longer duration cams. Then you will see around the 250bhp mark from the engine.


You need pistons as well, and have to get the valves re sized to match the lift duration

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Digimon

posted on 29/5/13 at 12:38 PM Reply With Quote
Have you had a look at the Cat Cams for the ST170 engine, we are running them in a Mk1 Escort and they work really well.

http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/Ford_ST170.html

Mk1 Escort with ST170 power

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silky16v

posted on 29/5/13 at 04:33 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Digimon
Have you had a look at the Cat Cams for the ST170 engine, we are running them in a Mk1 Escort and they work really well.

http://www.catcams.co.uk/acatalog/Ford_ST170.html

Mk1 Escort with ST170 power


yep no much change out of 1000 after fitting and having the valves re-shimmed

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Digimon

posted on 29/5/13 at 04:52 PM Reply With Quote
The valves don't need re-shimming unless you went for the crazy lift versions, great cams tho they really transform the engine
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silky16v

posted on 29/5/13 at 05:24 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Digimon
The valves don't need re-shimming unless you went for the crazy lift versions, great cams tho they really transform the engine


I took advice on these and was told different if you want to do correctly, otherwise the piston to valve contact becomes dangerously close

No doubt the cams make the difference but very expensive for what they are! Just wish I had the money to it it either cams or gearbox
And tbh the gearbox I want the most

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Jenko

posted on 29/5/13 at 08:04 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by baz-R
quote:
Originally posted by silky16v
quote:
Originally posted by scutter
The ST VVC isn't just on/off, otherwise why would Ford give the car a seperate ECU to control the VVC and Inlet lengths. the engine oil pressure is set by the relief valve in the pump and the solenoid lets varying abouts of that pressure to advance the pulley around, a fella on Turbosport got his max power on the rollers at something in the region of 45-50 degs rather than 60degs that came from just switching it on.

Apart from that, yes the ports are taller as when I put the ST inlet on a blacktop it kept sucking the O ring seals into the inlet tract until I refitted the old seals.

Regards Dan.


correct the VCT is controlled by the cam phase sensor, rpm, tps and other sensors it is a continually altering the position of the camshaft


so all of thoes reputable tuneing co.'s and meny experts in the aftermarket field are all wrong then?
i wanted to use a st170 with full vvc control with aftermarket ecu but everyone said it cannot be done as ford do it on and off!

inlet lengths are of no interst as i wanted to run throttle bodies

now if anyone can give me info on how to actualy do it and how it realy works im all ears as it is an engine upgrade im intersted in

[Edited on 28/5/13 by baz-R]



It's not on / off...so if that's what you were told then , yes, they were wrong.......if you look at a pic of the head with the rocker off you will see that on the inlet cam at the coil pack end, the cam has a trigger wheel, and pointing at that from the side of the head is a sensor......as the trigger wheel passes over the sensor, the signal is converted to a pulsed signal that is used to operate the solenoid that controls oil pressure to the vvt system.





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Rob Allison

posted on 1/6/13 at 06:07 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by silky16v
quote:
Originally posted by Rob Allison
Money is better spent on getting longer duration cams. Then you will see around the 250bhp mark from the engine.


You need pistons as well, and have to get the valves re sized to match the lift duration


Pistons will take far more then n/a form could give. 330 to 350 bhp without silly revs.
Cam buckets need reshimming for regrind cams but blanks will fit straight in.






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mtechmatt

posted on 21/1/14 at 09:14 AM Reply With Quote
Ok bit of an old thread but I thought I would share CORRECT information, as in scoped, tested and analysed... the reason being we are developing a standalone mapple VVT Controller for the ST170, which will be retialed via Chester Sport Cars.

1. The solenoid is actuated by 12V.

2. It is a PWM system the Frequency is FIXED but the DUTY alters.

3. The little box you guys are calling a separate ECU is NOT an ECU, it is merely an actuator drive for the variable length inlet.

4. Using just a varying PWM on TPS/RPM will not yeild the best results because the system is using oil pressure and its flow through a valve which varies with temperature, load, wear etc. So this is how is its REALLY done:

The ECU finds TDC from the crank. It then follows the cam profile from the cam sensor to determine the cam angle. It looks up the desired cam angle based on Load and Speed (and a couple of other factors) and then using a PID loop it adds or reduces the DUTY of the valve to get the cam to target a commanded advance angle. Simples.

5. Switching it on or off like V-Tec will yield mixed results. I have personally seen an ST170 jump from 160bhp to 197bhp on jenveies on the Dyno by turning it simply on and off during mapping. The problem is that due to other fluctuations the VE of the engine can change so much that the mixture may go lean or rich, depending on lots of unmeasured factors (oil pressure and temp being two) That being said it does work, although a bodge.

Hence this ~200+VAT controller being developed, which will turn a Megasquirt or an Omex 600 (or any other VVT lacking controller ECU) into a real solution for this problem... and not cost 1000 to do it...

We will be looking for beta testers over the next few months and as always I always come first to the Locost forums as you guys are actually willing to get your hands dirty!

Will keep you all posted

Matt

[Edited on 21/1/14 by mtechmatt]

[Edited on 21/1/14 by mtechmatt]

[Edited on 21/1/14 by mtechmatt]






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Jenko

posted on 21/1/14 at 09:52 AM Reply With Quote
Very interesting.........

My current build is using the Puma 1.7 engine which (as I understand it), uses the exact same system as the ST170 VVT.

Using the Alt fuction on the Omex you can also turn it off again at higher revs that (apparently) can give good results, although I don't profess to understand why.......but as you say, this is not the way ford intended to use it.

My intention is to get the car on the road this summer so in the next few months will be getting the cars on the rollers.





MY BLOG - http://westfieldv8.blogspot.co.uk/

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johnH20

posted on 21/1/14 at 12:32 PM Reply With Quote
For those interested in this subject there is stand alone VVT controller available already from DIYAutotune ( makers of Megasquirt ). Since posting this on another thread I have learned that some MX5 owners in the UK have used this successfully. Cost from memory is about $250 so around 200 in the UK. How applicable it is to an ST 170 Zetec or a Puma for that matter I do not know but I am trying to find out more. I gather there is a very active Megasquirt forum that might have more info but I have not followed that up yet.
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mtechmatt

posted on 21/1/14 at 01:35 PM Reply With Quote
John,

Its not compatible as the Mazda uses a track and hold method for PID/Duty control. that and the triggering patterns are completley different

Our system will initially support ST170 patterns but as out library of patterns increases (and the unit has USB frmware update) we aim to support an array of patterns, Puma, Mazda, Toyota, BMW Vanos, you name it

Matt






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johnH20

posted on 21/1/14 at 07:52 PM Reply With Quote
Excellent news, I will follow this with interest. Keep us posted.
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mtechmatt

posted on 6/2/14 at 09:44 AM Reply With Quote
A little sneak peak at the ST170 VVT Controller









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alan87

posted on 6/2/14 at 10:12 AM Reply With Quote
Looking good Matt. Will the fsq400 ecu have this built in?






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mtechmatt

posted on 6/2/14 at 10:49 AM Reply With Quote
Alan,

Yes as we are using the same processor family, anything we develop on either device will be cross compatible. ie if we work out BMW VANOS on the FSQ, we can add that module to the VVT controller, and vice verca

Matt






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johnH20

posted on 6/2/14 at 11:23 AM Reply With Quote
Jenko, I have been told that the ST170 VVT and the Puma VVT are not the same although the operating principles might be. The Puma is ( was ) sourced from INA, the ST 170 I don't know. Perhaps most significantly the Puma operates off 5 volts ( certainly Omex think so and others have achieved successful operation using a 5 volt aux out signal ). It seems the definitive answer from Mtech is that the ST170 operates of 12 volts. Anyone able to confirm/clarify?
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big_wasa

posted on 6/2/14 at 12:05 PM Reply With Quote
Yep the st170 is 12v.
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Stoxs

posted on 6/2/14 at 09:58 PM Reply With Quote
looking real sweet there Matt
willlook forward to seeing the benifits from this little box of tricks!!

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Jenko

posted on 6/2/14 at 11:00 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by johnH20
Jenko, I have been told that the ST170 VVT and the Puma VVT are not the same although the operating principles might be. The Puma is ( was ) sourced from INA, the ST 170 I don't know. Perhaps most significantly the Puma operates off 5 volts ( certainly Omex think so and others have achieved successful operation using a 5 volt aux out signal ). It seems the definitive answer from Mtech is that the ST170 operates of 12 volts. Anyone able to confirm/clarify?


The operating principles are identical......Im with you on the actual make of the VVT ..no idea if they are the same. But it most certinaly does work off a 12v...I know this because I did some experimenting with a variable power supply. I read as much as google could throw at me, but there was so much conflicting info out there that I decided to figure it out for myself. Also, I spoke to OC motorsport who did a conversion of a Puma 1.7 to a Fiesta, and used an Omex to switch the VVT in an out....Time will tell of course.





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mtechmatt

posted on 7/2/14 at 08:52 AM Reply With Quote
Indeed it would be 12v.

The Aux out you speak of would be a switched ground, not switched live, so its up to the vehicle to power the solenoid.

Its going to draw maybe 1 amp, so that means we need an entire secong regultor to give it 5v from the PCM... easier (by design) just to run it off 12v as the switching mosfet in both cases would be the same. Less cost, and ford like that

The cam pattern appears to be a 4+1 (same as the ST170) as far as I can tell so I will be looking forward to trying it out on this also.

That being said, the Puma engine with a set of Bike carbs and a NODIZ (with VVT) and you have a very light, very revvy little motor that can be quite torquey with correct VVT operation (or flat and fluffy without)

Could be an interesting kit to put together...

We have an ST170 focus here for development, and once we have confirmed the systems operation Chester Sports Cars will be combining it with a an ST170 and bike carbs and will give some rolling road figures, comparing no VVT, the classic 'on at 1300rpm' method, and finally properly mapped VVT control. Should be interesting!

Regards,
Matt






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Jenko

posted on 7/2/14 at 09:26 AM Reply With Quote
The Aux switches in a ground as you mention....just to be extra carful, I Actually used the omex Alt control to drive a relay rather than direct from the omex...I think it would have coped but, did not want to risk it.





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MikeRJ

posted on 7/2/14 at 10:04 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mtechmatt
4. Using just a varying PWM on TPS/RPM will not yeild the best results because the system is using oil pressure and its flow through a valve which varies with temperature, load, wear etc. So this is how is its REALLY done:

The ECU finds TDC from the crank. It then follows the cam profile from the cam sensor to determine the cam angle. It looks up the desired cam angle based on Load and Speed (and a couple of other factors) and then using a PID loop it adds or reduces the DUTY of the valve to get the cam to target a commanded advance angle. Simples.


Hallelujah. I gave a similar explanation on this topic several years back, but some people just like to hold onto their (incorrect) beliefs

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johnH20

posted on 7/2/14 at 04:23 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks for the recent replies guys, I am slowly beginning to understand this but I am outside my comfort zone! Looking forward to results Matt. Think you could be on to a winner.
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