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You just wouldn't believe it. More engine trouble.
smart51 - 16/4/07 at 08:54 PM

After just fixing my carb related idling problem a few days ago, I thought I'd go for a short ride in my car. But ended up coming home on the back of a truck. There's never been a time longer than a week or so where everything on the car has been working fully.

The first 3 or 4 miles were just fine. Plenty of power, lots of acceleration, no problems. Then it started making a clanking noise that changed on overrun. Dipping the clutch made the noise go away. Re-engage and back it came. I stopped and looked arround and everything looks fine. rev the engine to 2000 or 3000 and it sounds like there's something loose attached to the crank or somewhere.

I drove it gingerly to the nearest illuminated off road parking area and called green flag to take me home. The car drives and the engine seems happy enough but for the noise.

What could be wrong with the damn thing this time?


bigrich - 16/4/07 at 08:58 PM

poss clutch basket come loose or something on the transmission if the noise stops with the clutch in


ChrisGamlin - 16/4/07 at 09:00 PM

First thing Id do is whip the clutch cover off and make sure the basket hasnt cracked or knocked a tooth off.


ChrisGamlin - 16/4/07 at 09:00 PM

LOL at least we were consistent with the advice .


smart51 - 16/4/07 at 09:08 PM

The clutch is easy to look at, as I told someone else earlier today. I think I might even have a spare gasket somewhere.

The prop is tight at the engine end and there's no real backlash in it. Engine bolts are all in place and tight (to the finger). Nothing appears to be loose. When I rev the engine genlty with my hand on the throttle, the noise does seem to be internal. I hope its nothing expensive.


ChrisGamlin - 16/4/07 at 09:11 PM

If cou cant see anything wrong with the clutch, next step would be to drop the sump and hope you don't find any lumps of metal in there


Dillinger1977 - 16/4/07 at 09:32 PM

no advice but sorry to hear about the bad luck. Im currently hoping for the day mine gets on the road and the build work is finally finished.. but by the sounds of it, it never really ends!


Hellfire - 17/4/07 at 08:12 AM

Sorry to hear of the bad run of luck you're having lately... as said, it sounds clutch related. In respect of the gasket, a little advice is to smear both sides with copperslip that way if you need to remove again the gasket simply peals off of the engine and cover - no need to buy a new one!
It sounds like the engine has lead a varied life.... fingers crossed it is just a temperamental one for now!

Steve


smart51 - 17/4/07 at 05:30 PM

I've just taken apart the clutch and it all looks good. I've taken off the sump and baffle plate. No chunks of metal fell out with it and the sump isn't full of swarf. Its a bit dark up in the block so I'll have to get an inspection lamp.

A guy at work thinks that the symptoms point to a worn big end bearing. Does that sound plausible? Is it a big job on an R1?


ChrisGamlin - 17/4/07 at 06:13 PM

Worn big ends is highly unlikely IMHO especially in a modern tight tolerence engine like an R1. Big end noise wouldnt go away when you dipped the clutch and you'd also have very low oil pressure for starters, and if a big end has properly picked up you usually get small bronze type metal shavings in the sump.

One other thing to look at Ive just thought of, check the ring gear off the crank that drives the clutch basket. You'll need to inspect it via the clutch cover and if you can try to turn the engine over with is in 1st a wrench on the sprocket (with the plugs out) so you can see it all the way around. On my old blade I had the crank drive gear shed a few teeth and it sounded awful, much like a big end completely gone, but having said that if this was the case here I'd expect a few fragments in the sump.


tks - 17/4/07 at 07:21 PM

Nah i don't think either it are the big end bearings the reason is simple! The engine would have crashed already! Once there is a bit of play in suchs a engine it increases rapidly.... until the valve is touching the piston etc...

Did you looked at your clutch actuation meganism? Is there a posibility that you over pull the clutch??? is it possible that the plates and disc are over there service limit??When they get to thin maybe the springs gets to loose etc..

what is the noise about if you press half clutch?? for example while pulling away??
is it possible that the noise is coming from another part? for example the diff??

the drive shafts?? rear brakes???

Tks


smart51 - 17/4/07 at 09:27 PM

Rolling allong at 30 MPH with the clutch disengaged and the engine idling, there is no bad noise. The noise only occurs when the engine is revving above 2000 or 2500 RPM, in neutral or any gear. It starts, idles, pulls away and drives normally, just with a loud disturbing noise.

I had a look up the sump with a torch. It all looks OK but then you can't really see too much. It looks like I'll have to lift the engine out.

Chris, you say that big end noise wouldn't go away when the clutch is dipped. Do you not get big end noise at idle?

[Edited on 17-4-2007 by smart51]


ChrisGamlin - 17/4/07 at 09:31 PM

It will sound like a bag of spanners at any revs if the big ends have gone properly, but I guess it might not be as noisy at idle / when not under load if they were only just starting to wear, but the big sign would be low oil pressure. Do you have a guage?


OX - 17/4/07 at 10:17 PM

my brothers first engine was like that .it sounded like a growl when reved up but only at low revs ,after 4000 rpm it was ok. it got worse and worse and with in 20 miles it sounded like a tractor,dropped the oil and found loads of bronze in it.


jimgiblett - 17/4/07 at 11:01 PM

Could be the generator. Mine broke a boss on the crankcase which holds the outer (The inner is attached to the end of the crank).

Can you borrow a stethoscope to identify where the noise is coming from.

Hope not as this was the demise of my old motor due to boss being so close to a main bearing journal.

- Jim


smart51 - 18/4/07 at 07:02 AM

I don't have an oild pressure sensor. I just use the oil level sensor that comes with the engine.

The generator is a good one to look at. I hadn't thought of that. I'll have to lift the enigne to look at it.


Bob C - 18/4/07 at 09:33 AM

re big end failure: I had an old triumph with this feature.....
Engine was quiet when cold (& the oil was thick) and rattled/banged for england when hot.
Tough luck mate - hope you can fix it
Bob


hobbsy - 18/4/07 at 02:02 PM

When big end number 3 went on my Blackbird it seized within <5 miles of suspecting a problem. Oil pressure (or lack thereof) gave it away more than the noise as these cars are so loud its hard to hear big ends over the exhaust IMO.


Guinness - 18/4/07 at 02:32 PM

I know when my no 3 bearing began to go, just as I pulled away from the lights on the coast road, saw a massive cloud of white smoke in my mirrors. Stopped at a petrol station a mile or so down the road. Checked the oil level, was fine. Drove on about 15 miles. Thought something had changed in the engine noise. Came out of a 30 zone onto a national speed limit road outside Ponteland, floored it and BANG AD BANG AD BANG AD BANG! No mistaking it that time, sounded like a lump hammer hitting a oil drum!

Took the sump off and it was full of shiney / sparkly oil.

Hope yours is OK.

Mike


smart51 - 18/4/07 at 07:59 PM

I've just poured the oil out of the bowl into the original container for disposal. There were no swirls or shiny bits in the top 90% but at the bottom there were what looked like flakes of copper foil. Mostly about a mm across, some upto 2mm and one about 3mm. The same at the bottom of the sump.

I also took the rocker cover off and that was just fine. So I've undone all the bolts and hoses holding the engine in ready to lift the lump out.

How much big end bearing is there to lose before big damage occurs?


ChrisGamlin - 18/4/07 at 08:09 PM

Oh dear


If you do have bearing material in the sump then Id say its only a matter of time (and probably not that much time) before it goes bang. Any bearing wear isn't good at all, its not really a case of x amount of wear before its too bad because in a healthy engine the bearing shouldnt actually touch the crank journals at all, as it sits on a film of high pressure oil, so once some bearing material is missing, oil pressure drops (because the gap is bigger so the oil escapes more easily), which then spirals into more wear and then seizing up.

I'd suggest if you can to take the engine out and split the block. Take all the bearing caps off and see what they look like, if its simply a bearing thats picked up but the crank journals themselves are OK (no scoring etc), then you should get away with just new bearing shells and maybe a new rod, but to be honest if there are bits like that in the sump, its likely the bearing has started to spin, and its likely to have damaged the journal as well.

Can you take a pic of the debris in the sump to look at, just in case we're coming to the wrong conclusion?

[Edited on 18/4/07 by ChrisGamlin]


DIY Si - 18/4/07 at 08:15 PM

What you describe is precisley what I found when I pulled my sump off after suspected big end failure on my Bird. I could wobble one of the big ends around with my fingers! Sounds as if something similar may have happened to yours. Mine sounded like a bag of spanners at all revs, so you may have gotten away with it, but I wouldn't hold out lots of hope. Sorry it's not what you want to hear.


smart51 - 18/4/07 at 08:35 PM

It just so happens that I have an engine of the same type in my basement with pistons that rock in the bores. It otherwise seems fine. Is it reasonable to think of swapping any of the rods and/or the crank if they are damaged or is it not that simple?


DIY Si - 18/4/07 at 08:44 PM

If they are the same type, then I don't see why not. Should just be a case of changing everything over. I would look at fitting new bearings whilst it's all apart though, to help prevent it happening again.
Any idea as to why it happened on the engine in the first place? Would be a shame to fit all new stuff just to have it happen again. Low oil prssure at some point? It only takes a second or two to screw it all up, as happened to me.


ChrisGamlin - 18/4/07 at 08:56 PM

Yep, as long as knocking out a bearing hasnt scored a bore or bashed the head due to a wayward piston, there's no reason why the crank / rods from the other engine couldnt be swapped in.

If using the other engine's crank and rods, I'd actually inspect / plastiguage the bearings in that engine and if within tolerence leave them in rather than go with new ones for the sake of it, because they'll be nicely bedded in and there's less chance of getting something wrong than fitting new ones.


smart51 - 20/4/07 at 08:24 PM

Well, I've separated the crank case halves and inspected the damage to the lower halves of all the crank shells. The crank case shells are fine as are the outer two conrod shells. No 2 conrod shell has the first signs of wear, as does the crank, but No 3 shell is completely copper coloured and worn. The crank also has traces of copper colour on it and signs of wear.

The crank from the old engine has been taken out and looks just fine. Tomorrow, at SWIMO's discression I'll take out the other and order the apropriate new shells / gaskets etc.

I don't want to kill the new crank so how do I determine the cause of the failure?


tks - 20/4/07 at 08:30 PM

i would do another thing...

what was the problem with your first engine??

i woudn't touch that one and just swap from your new donor to the old donor if you get what i mean.

The reason is that crankcase bearings etc.. are atleast for me like walking on ice!

sow i would trow out the gearbox from the bad crankcase engine and put it in your old engine! think that atleast its less dangerous as "playing" with crankcase bearings..

problems looks like oil pressure on that bearing #3...


Tks


smart51 - 20/4/07 at 08:57 PM

The old engine had the gearbox fixed, only to find that the piston skirts had worn, causing low compression. I think I'd rather swap the crank than the pistons.


Coose - 20/4/07 at 09:27 PM

Have you run it low on oil at all? I assume that you have a baffle plate? What kind of oil are you using?

The other thing to consider is that the motor will have most probably come out of a crashed bike, and who knows what happened just after the point of impact? It could have easily been laid on its side with the throttle wide open for 30 seconds....

I'd do as you're doing - lob the crank in with new shells. It'd be nice to be able to blow out the oilways to be on the safe side, but that'd mean a full engine rebuild which I think that you're trying to avoid.... Make sure that you assemble the shells with good quality oil, and once it's rebuilt spin it over on the starter with the plugs out for a few seconds before starting it.


smart51 - 20/4/07 at 09:52 PM

I have a baffle plate and the lowest it ever got on oil was the bottom of the sight window with the engine idling. I usually top the oil up once it gets down to the middle of the window so that it just covers the window.

I've been using Castrol GPS semi-synthetic bike oil. Is this OK or should I be using fully synthetic?

The engine came from a trusted supplier of engines, not wanting to name names. He said it came from a known source. I don't know its origins though. I don't want it to happen again as I'm fresh out of cranks so any suggestions of things to inspect would be welcome.


G.Man - 20/4/07 at 10:30 PM

oil should be fine, failure almost certainly low oil pressure...

thats the only cause of main/big end/wrist pin bearing failure...

usually airlock in pickup, or oil level too low...


Coose - 21/4/07 at 03:52 PM

I think I can guess where your motor came from and there probably isn't anyone who is more reputable!

He would probably agree with me in what I said previously - the big end could have taken a beating during the last few seconds of the demise of the bike that it came out of, but the damage may not rear its' ugly head until a short while afterwards, which I would suspect to be the cause of the problem.

As stated in the previous post bu G.Man, your oil level should be ok, as would your choice of oil (though I personally use the best stuff I can get - Motul 300V) so that *shouldn't* have contributed to the problem.

As I said before, I would do as you are planning to - fit the old crank with new big end and main bearings. It would also be worth flushing and blowing out the oilways in the lower crankcase as that is where the crank is fed from. It should clear out any debris that may be left.

[Edited on 21/4/07 by Coose]


smart51 - 21/4/07 at 06:20 PM

Here is a pic of the big end top shells. The bottoms are not quite as bad. I've ordered a complete set of shells plus all the gaskets bolts and lock washers that are needed. £90. Plus oil and a filter. They should all arrive next friday.

I've checked all the oilways in the crank and lower crank case using spray carb cleaner (it comes out of the can with quite a lot of force). They were all open and at 2 or 3mm diameter, it would take a lot of debris to block them. I've stripped the oil pump which looks fine too. Out of paranoia, I might fit the pump from the old engine which has beautiful bearing shells. Rescued attachment big end top shells.JPG
Rescued attachment big end top shells.JPG


tks - 21/4/07 at 06:28 PM

you can do that, saying that its wise to think about the fact where the worn piston skirt came from...

not that that second pump also has a problem...

saying that its stil strage that only num 3 looks that way...

i mean if the engine wouldn't get oil..
wy wouldn't all the bearings go out (with time) ??

To test the oil ways for obstruction i would try to measure how long it takes on each engine to empty if you fill it up with oil.. or whatso ever... maybe its to to to to but atleast you can sleep relaxed



Tks


tks - 21/4/07 at 11:11 PM

guys what would happen if the engine's spark at no3 piston comes to early or to late would it be able to cause this kind of damage to the big end??

Tks


Coose - 22/4/07 at 10:13 AM

Doubtful, plus the fact that the pre-'02 R1 uses two coils, one for 1 & 4 and the other for 2 & 3, so the same would happen to 2 if that was the case.

The problem is most likely oil starvation based on my previous posts.


skydivepaul - 22/4/07 at 08:55 PM

i had a total engine failure last year with an R1 and when i stripped it, it was No3 big ends that had seized also. these must be the first to go????????

unfortunatley i couldnt salvage mine as it went whilst on a trackday at oulton park. i ended up with total engine failure, con rod snapped lots of twisted metal and the like. it was horrible to look at


smart51 - 6/5/07 at 05:32 PM

Well, the engine is back together and I've done 4 short test drives totaling 20 miles. Apart from losing a little coolant, everything seems fine. The engine sounds a lot quieter and smoother and purrs like a sewing machine. I've even found that cruising around in just sunglasses at no more than 5000 RPM or 52MPH is fairly good, gentle fun. After a few more confidence building miles, I'll start to build up the revs and throttle opening.

Next time, I'm going to build an EV.


locoboy - 7/5/07 at 06:44 PM

Whats an EV?


smart51 - 8/5/07 at 07:41 AM

An Electric Vehicle. No oil leaks, no overheating, no big ends, no carbs. Just sealed for life roller bearings with a 10,000 hour life at rated (read maximum) speed with no servicing required.


ChrisGamlin - 8/5/07 at 11:56 AM

....with the performance of a milkfloat and 40 mile range