R1 (5PW) running rich / possibly on 3 cyl's / Innovate wideband Q?
hobbsy - 5/5/12 at 09:32 PM
Longish story.
Engine swap from main to spare earlier in the week as stator windings burnt out when I last used it in approx July last year.
Could have replaced stator in the engine that was in there but have a spare engine recently re-shelled (another long story) so opted to fit that
instead as stator access in situ is a pain.
Initially couldn't start the thing but that was down to the Power Commander wiring. Bypassed Power Commander (once I remembered about the CPS
connections (as it's a PC3R it can also tweak ignition timing) and back running.
Didn't feel great to drive and sounded a bit flat four ish but put that down to a exhaust gasket leak. Now think it may have been running on 3.
Thought it was 3rd cyl as that header felt cooler, and initially removing low tension feed to coil pack didn't appear to change the engine note.
Since playing with this further it appears to behave better and removing *any* of the coil pack feeds results in a change of engine note.
Since fixed Power Commander wiring (broken wire) but on my Innovate wideband lambda gauge (XD-16 from memory) I am seeing an AFR of 7 to 8:1 at idle
and when I rev it. When I first saw this (when it felt like running on 3) I put this down to exactly that - running on 3.
I've tried a bunch of stuff - checking for air leaks around the TB's (as best I can), swapping plugs and coil packs etc but still seeing
this very rich AFR.
HOWEVER - for the last 300 miles or so when I last used it (after I discovered stator windings toasted) I disconnected the feed to the wideband from
the Innovate controller (in order to preserve battery life).
I know this could lead to the wideband sensors death but I *had* to make the 750 mile (in one day) journey back from the South of France to
Northampton to make a wedding.
So - as this is the first time I've reconnected the wideband am I getting duff readings? Or am I genuinely getting mega rich fuelling? 7 to 8:1
is bore wash territory is it not? I'm not really seeing the grey/black smoke of fuel from exhaust - at least when revving with no load.
Should I trust my wideband and if so what could be causing such an increase in AFR? The TB's and coil packs etc etc are all the same as what was
running before. I have soaked the injectors in carb cleaner as when I had the non-start issues (caused by the Power Commander) I thought it was fuel
gumming.
I didn't even disconnect the coil packs or TB's from the loom when changing the engine - I just moved them out of the way.
Guess it could be a TB vacuum line air leak - eg the feed to the fuel pressure reg? Any other ideas? What would cause the AFR to richen up so much?
I have the original clocks and it isn't showing the ECU light or any error codes. I'm tempted to buy a new Bosch wideband sensor. It smelt
rich but then it always does when running in a garage.
Or is it just the failure mode of the wideband?
I didn't have time to take it for another drive and I don't live in the UK any more (for now). Next time I am back I have approx 24 hours
to fix this then get to Portsmouth for a ferry trip to Bilbao then about 3k miles over 10 days.
Help please! 
hobbsy - 7/5/12 at 11:34 AM
I've had a suggestion (thanks again JimG) that this could be a sticking injector which would certainly make sense as it has stood for 9
months+
Didn't think to check the spray pattern once fixed the wiring issue, as soon as we saw fuel come out throught problem fixed, was only later when
realised it was running rough.
An extreme rich condition can lead to a misfire and even if not fully misfiring would explain one header being colder than the others (with my low
tech wet finger test - would love to have my infra red thermometer to hand).
Wasn't too keen to remove fuel rail as the cross head screws in the TB's are very tight and made of cheese in my experience. Also worried
out the injector O-rings being baked hard as so brittle / leaky upon re-assembly.
I bought an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner a while ago when I was going to use some 2nd hand injectors, since gave to it my mother to clean jewelry but I
could temporarily borrow it back
Not sure what to put in fluid wise? Using acetone or similar gives me some fear about fire / explosion!
I've given the injectors a good old spray with carb cleaner whilst the TB's were inverted (a small amount sits on top of the injector pin
holes as they are recessed slightly).
However if one is sticking it seems to be like it's more like the rear part of the injector closest to the fuel rail where the moving parts
are...
[Edited on 7/5/12 by hobbsy]
hobbsy - 10/5/12 at 09:18 PM
180 views and no new ideas.
Am going to see if I can find some good used TB's and/or send off my existing set to have the injectors cleaned.
rdodger - 10/5/12 at 09:48 PM
Hi Hobbsy
Re the innovate. Even if you have other issues have you re calibrated in free air it to make sure it is giving a proper reading?
mad4x4 - 10/5/12 at 10:13 PM
The innovate controller should tell you via the calibrate light if the sensor is fubar
adithorp - 10/5/12 at 10:19 PM
Can you test fire the injectors using the dash? I can initiate sets of 5 pulses on each injector with my 5VY (can do the same with coils as well).
That way you'll know if they're working. Don't know about the sonic cleaning fluid. My first stop would be to saok then in injector
cleaner and then jury rig a pump so I could run it on a very strong injector cleaner/petrol mix.
Not sure how you can chech your wideband other than put another one on. Is there any indication from plug colour if it's running rich?
Temp sender reading low would result in running rich. What did it read on the dash? As long as it's not gone open or closed circuit it won't
often cause a fault code (ECU has no way to know it's not 10'c even if it is really 90c).
Loss of vac to the eturn valve or the valve itself failing would give rich idle but you'd expect it to be better under load.
ps. I did try texting you but you must have already left the country.
hobbsy - 10/5/12 at 10:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
Hi Hobbsy
Re the innovate. Even if you have other issues have you re calibrated in free air it to make sure it is giving a proper reading?
Hi - no haven't done this, didn't have time
This is the main problem. I ran out of time and I'm now across the Atlantic from it
There are several things that I thought to try whilst sat on the plane etc and this was one of them.
So frustrating not being able to work on it and knowing I have a lot less than a day to look at it, and I'll be knackered when I do after a night
flight
hobbsy - 10/5/12 at 10:26 PM
quote:
Originally posted by mad4x4
The innovate controller should tell you via the calibrate light if the sensor is fubar
So that's on the main body of the LC-1 rather than my XD-16 gauge?
Not played with them that much as they are a relatively new toy.
But prior to all these problems they gave me the readings I would expect to see.
It did seem to sit on H99 (last bit of sensor heating) for ages and occasionally give me E-2 or E-8 which are both sensor codes but not terminal and
I've seen them in the past but they generally clear.
hobbsy - 10/5/12 at 10:45 PM
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
Can you test fire the injectors using the dash? I can initiate sets of 5 pulses on each injector with my 5VY (can do the same with coils as well).
That way you'll know if they're working. Don't know about the sonic cleaning fluid. My first stop would be to saok then in injector
cleaner and then jury rig a pump so I could run it on a very strong injector cleaner/petrol mix.
Not sure how you can chech your wideband other than put another one on. Is there any indication from plug colour if it's running rich?
Temp sender reading low would result in running rich. What did it read on the dash? As long as it's not gone open or closed circuit it won't
often cause a fault code (ECU has no way to know it's not 10'c even if it is really 90c).
Loss of vac to the eturn valve or the valve itself failing would give rich idle but you'd expect it to be better under load.
ps. I did try texting you but you must have already left the country.
Adi - I did get that text but for some reason my phone didn't recognise the number so didn't know who it was from - have you changed
yours?
Just found the relevant pages in the manual for the injector test stuff - I assume the "engine stop switch" it refers to turning ON and OFF
is the same as turning the ignition ON and OFF?
Again another test which I would love to do now but can't.
My gut feeling is that it's an injector issue as it's been sat 9 months or more.
I suspect the injectors are a pain to remove, or should I say the cross head screws on the throttle bodies that hold things like the fuel rail in are
mega tight but made of cheese in my experience Any tips around this appreciated.
I'm tempted to buy a complete set of spare TB's (I do have a set but they are incomplete and have been sat for ages also so the injectors
could well be smegged up too).
OR I might send the complete TB's off to have the injectors properly tested and cleaned (but realistically this will probably cost almost the
same as some 2nd hand TB's)
Temp sensor appeared to be reading ok, only did a 5 mile run to MOT place and was pootling as freshly rebuilt engine (new big end shells), but I saw
it get up to 75 which is what it'll read at speed on the motorway etc.
Wideband - I might buy a new sensor just to rule it out. It's probably only done 3k miles though if that and 200 or so not powered up. So I
reckon its ok and therefore the mega rich reading is not a lie.
Vac feed to return value - the FPR I assume? Ok so if I understand what you're saying even if I had a problem with the feed to the FPR it
wouldn't give me 7 or 8:1 AFR all over the rev range? Again I didn't get chance to drive it very much. Also I didn't fix the
PowerCommander wiring issue until I returned from the MOT (after spotting the damaged wire). A lot of the hesitation on the short drive I put down to
*not* running with the PowerCommander (so fuelling out because of that). Although when I saw the very rich AFR I was pretty sure the lack of
PowerCommander wasn't to blame - and this was confirmed when I re-instated it and still saw approx the same AFR.
adithorp - 10/5/12 at 11:39 PM
I'm still on the same number. I've switched networks but the no is the same so should still come up as me.
If the temp showed 70+ then I'd expect the sensor is OK.
I'm not convinced of the sticking injector theory. If an injector isn't operating (no fuel) then there'd be extra O2 in the exhaust
from that cylinder and therefore a high lamda (not low). If it was stuck open then that plug would be wet and HC readings would be high. Did they
check emissions for the MOT? Those reading could really help.
FPR valve opens at higher vac (throttle shut) and reduces the fuel presure. On WOP the vac drops and the return shuts. In theory then a valve stuck
open or no vac would effect closed throttle readings more than WOT.
It's 00:30 in the morning though so my thinking might be mixed up.
Where's the car? Notts?
hobbsy - 29/5/12 at 07:46 PM
Just to finish this thread off - Adi (in my absence) very kindly flushed the injectors using some decent cleaner at 50% concentration and it appears
to have sorted it out. It also appears my LC-1/XD-16 combo may have been playing up (no change when Bosch sensor changed but Adi's wideband
gauge read different). This now seems to be reading ok (even with my gauge back to 12/13:1 ish) and other readings (CO etc) back this up.
So hopefully all sorted and many many thanks to Adi (I know I still need to buy you beer!)
adithorp - 29/5/12 at 08:02 PM
No problem mate.
Thinking about it on the way home, I suspect the Innovate has a wiring fault either in the loom or in the controler. It was giving the low reading
when I first tried it. Then when I reconnected it it was reading low, alternating with flashing higher unreadable numbers (very quick). Then when I
switched your sensor back in it read correct. Between each of those things I'd disturbed the wiring near the controler and the strange flashing
readings seem like the sort of thing you might get from a broken wire just touching together.
ps. there's a slight oil leak from the front corner of the cam cover. Only slight though.