(1) In this day of 4gb pen drives why would anybody smugle out, pass on and photocopy a 780 page document ? Even if the document came out of Ferrari
in paper form why didn't Coughlan just order an industrial grade photo copier/scanner out of his McLaren budget.
(2) Why when reading the emails between de la Rosa and Alonso do they seem almost scripted same hand to be used as evidence ?
(3) Why was Alonso not punished ?
(4)Why has the son of a black shirt got his knife into Lewis Hamilton who is totally innocent. ?
(5) Why is the son of a black shirt calling big Ron a liar -- when it was he who reported Alonso and de la Rosa. ?
we will never know the truth.
The point is that the McLaren chief designer was found with Ferrari documents. As with all industry, it's the man in charge who is ultimately
responsible; that's Ron.
They were found guilty, so they should be kicked out. Simple!
passing thought --- Mclaren should buy the photocopier shop and shut it down
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
(1) In this day of 4gb pen drives why would anybody smugle out, pass on and photocopy a 780 page document ? Even if the document came out of Ferrari in paper form why didn't Coughlan just order an industrial grade photo copier/scanner out of his McLaren budget.
quote:
(2) Why when reading the emails between de la Rosa and Alonso do they seem almost scripted same hand to be used as evidence ?
quote:
(3) Why was Alonso not punished ?
quote:
(4)Why has the son of a black shirt got his knife into Lewis Hamilton who is totally innocent. ?
(5) Why is the son of a black shirt calling big Ron a liar -- when it was he who reported Alonso and de la Rosa. ?
Black Shirts
Members of Mussolini's fascist movement in Italy.
(Also the followers of Oswald Mosley's fascists in the UK)
[Edited on 17/9/07 by David Jenkins]
FIA = Ferrari International Assistance.
quote:
Originally posted by x_flow57
FIA = Ferrari International Assistance.
quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
Black Shirts
Members of Mussolini's fascist movement in Italy.
(Also the followers of Oswald Mosley's fascists in the UK)
[Edited on 17/9/07 by David Jenkins]
) 
Max Mosley is Oswald's second son.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley
Bloody hell, they can't be serious, can they?
quote:
Mosley let it be known that he feels that Jean Todt should succeed him as president of the FIA when he steps down.
Courtesy of Sniff Petrol
Reading between the lines and adding more conspiracy.
Mosley and Ferrari and the american grandprix when only 4 cars 'Raced ' I belive there was a rumour that the Mr Mosley hold's a grudge
against our 'Ron' on the grounds that he led the rest of the teams in the 1 lap then in !.
I belive that most of the ones chosen for the investigation by the FIA have 'Links' / 'Linked ' with ferrari.
I find it strange that the dosier would exist in paper 'Technical draws on Cad piles of simulation calculations ect ect.
But I really feel that mclaren have been set-up good and propper.
regards
Agriv8
Have a look at the WMSC judgment - fills in a lot of gaps (although I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions or the punishment imposed)
http://fia1.greencathedral.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf
WELL I'm sort of glad that B. Trident has asked this question as it has sprung to my mind a couple of times. As it is we seem to be the only ones
thinking the same things mate.
IT JUST DOESN'T ADD UP AT ALL
Looks like Max has decided Ron has got to go. Why is he being the only one outspoken about the whole scenario out with the FIA conference room. A
quote in the paper today had him saying that a minority wanted Mclaren totally out for this season and they were all Lawyers. Does this mean we
haven't heard the end of this??? Will it spill into the courtrooms???? Certainly IMHO it looks likely and this is probably why Ron has basically
said that if he pays the fine then he wants total closure. I also thought that Max was two faced saying one thing to the interveiwer and then
expecting Ron to shake hands as if they were best buddies.
Could this whole thing have been set up?? Why?? to discredit a self built and financed company that has come from a mans dream and become more than
capable of beating the FIAT team. If so expect to see Alonso driving a red car sooner rather than later.
AM I the only one that thought Alonso's attitude at the weekend was one of smug arrogance???
Hamilton is also quoted today as saying Alonso tried a dirty move on him. I don't think so but it was good to watch (prolly the only bit that
was).
I always belivied that McLaren made fantastic toothpaste.Those Floride people have always been bother......
I'll get me coat......
Regardless of whether anybody thinks they were set up or not, McLaren cheated. They got caught cheating and they have to be punished. These
people are professional sportsmen (and women) at the pinnacle of their profession in motorsport. They knew what they were doing was wrong, yet they
still did it. They should have known better.
I also don't think for one minute that it's an attempt to get Ron out. If that was their intention, McLaren could have been punished more
severely and also had constructors points deducted next season.
With the backing of Mercedes, Vodafone and numerous other sponsors such as Santander, Johnnie Walker, Aigo, Henkel, Schuco, ’MM’, Mobil 1 and
Bridgestone, the $100m fine is just a drop in the ocean and will be easily paid off.
They cheated, they got caught and yes, maybe they were unlucky. One thing is for certain - they will be a stronger, even more formidable team next
season, provided they can keep Lewis Hamilton.
Question is, will they be good enough to beat the 1999 - 2004 constructors champion?
Personally, I think they should stick to doing what they do best - Manufacturing buggies and push-chairs!!
Phil
[Edited on 17-9-07 by Hellfire]
quote:
McLaren cheated. They got caught cheating and they have to be punished.
Well the plot thickens!!!!!!!!
Mclaren may complain about Renault having confidential info according to teletext.
It may press for action but instead of it all being saved for the fia hearing MAX has already stated that they're complaint regards an employee
leaving and taking a few floppy discs with him. So that'll be alright then will it????
Hellfire I think none of us would disagree that elements of Mclaren were "cheating" but the fact that Ron went to the Fia himself after
being told by Alonso on THAT weekend IMHO goes to show he was not at that time aware of it. As such why does it suck that the team has to bear the
brunt of the FIA's wrath instead of the two drivers and the technical guy involved. Perhaps they're the one's that needed fined or
banned from the sport. How the hell do you stop information changing hands when drivers are moving every season. Don't tell me that they
don't use something learnt at previous team to make changes at they're new team.
What happened to Stepney? I think perhaps he was just looking for a job, since apparently some of the English guys had left Ferrari recently and he
wasn't happy with it. Just a question; I don't get the papers full of info like you lot do, and I'm too lazy to read all the blogs. As
with all well-informed car crazed loony's, I get my info right here!!
This "Fascist Max vs. Ron" is ridiculous nonsense - his family's past is a bit tainted and the whole world knows it now (instead of
just a few know-it-alls like me); whose isn't if you dig enough?.
ps. Lewis had better learn to toughen up if he wants to be world champion, because FA isn't going to let him by that easily.
[Edited on 18/9/07 by RK]
All of the teams "cheat".
Drivers take information with them when they leave.
If you see a new nose on a ferrari, you can guarantee all the cars will have one in a few races. Look at those litte wings that now stick out either
side of the driver.
Unfortunately, Maclaren got caught and were made an example of.
Seems to be the way of the world.
quote:
Originally posted by iank
Max Mosley is Oswald's second son.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Mosley
I'm afraid I don't consider F1 to be a sport and haven't for a long time. F1 along with the FIA is basically a private financial
institution. It's populated and dominated by wealthy powerful people with too much personal gain/loss at stake to allow it to operate as a true
sport. It's the same for Premiership football IMHO.
IMHO McClaren have been shafted by Ferrari, the FIA, bad apple employees and worst of all Alonso. Alonso IMHO is a poor (if talented) sportsman who
cannot cope with competition pressure. I beleive Alonso should have been punished by the FIA for his role in this fiasco. If I were Ron Dennis
I'd also be prepared to try and pay his way out of the McClaren team with immediate effect.
At the end of the day, Ron is paying for politics he's been involved in since the 90's.
The issues with setting up the new Concorde Agreement, the GPMasters series etc. etc. Were the manufacturer based cars gonna setup their own series
etc. etc.
All that stuff has weed Mosley, Ecclestone off, and now they've got a chance to hammer Ron.
At the same time, if they'd punished the drivers then it would destroy for the public the first interesting series that's engaged more
viewers in years.... the last thing they want.
Cheers,
James
quote:
Originally posted by Dingz
quote:
McLaren cheated. They got caught cheating and they have to be punished.
But weren't Ferrari also cheating with at least a flexible floor, and were they punished? only by having a slower car when they changed it!
ps. my Dad was involved in a skirmish with Moseleys lot in the 30s!
[Edited on 17/9/07 by Dingz]
quote:
Originally posted by cossey
quote:
Originally posted by Dingz
quote:
McLaren cheated. They got caught cheating and they have to be punished.
But weren't Ferrari also cheating with at least a flexible floor, and were they punished? only by having a slower car when they changed it!
ps. my Dad was involved in a skirmish with Moseleys lot in the 30s!
[Edited on 17/9/07 by Dingz]
ferraris floor was not illegal as at the time the rules were the floor mustnt move under a certain load and ferraris didnt but it did move under large loads which were found at high speeds so against the spirit but not the letter of the law Mclaren sort clarification from the fia who changed the wording of the rules and the ferrari floor became illegal and was changed as was bmws.
To put it simply - I have obtained documents from a customer of mine which are Top Secret - I'll post a copy of them to each and everyone of you
then stand back and watch you all get fined and accused of cheating...
McLaren were set up - Ferrari are typically Italian, doing what Italians do best!
Steve
There is absolutely nothing in the FIA document released on Friday about the decision made on Thursday which indicates that McLaren cheated - they
maybe had the ability to copy elements of the Ferrari design, but they were certainly not proven to have done so, and almost certainly did not.
Ferrari, however, did have a floor which was against the rules in the Australian grand prix. The only reason they were allowed to race with it was
because the test the FIA used for deflection of the floor did not show the illegal nature of the floor as they used less pressure than was exerted by
the aerodynamic forces whilst the car was being driven. The documents Coughlan received showed them what Ferrari were doing, they proposed a similar
floor design to the FIA asking if it would be legal and were told it wasn't, the FIA then changed the test and the Ferrari floor was discovered,
and declared illegal. in my book, that means Ferrari cheated in the Australian GP, but did not receive any punishment.
Have McLaren been set up - almost certainly. I doubt it is anything to do with Lewsi Hamilton and Max's family background - although this is an
interesting link. Much more likely is that Ron is running a very successful McLaren team, but Max is no longer running the March team, come to think
of it, they no longer exist. Could he be jealous, maybe. Is he abusing power, definitely. in my view.
quote:
Originally posted by ecosse
Bloody hell, they can't be serious, can they?
quote:
Mosley let it be known that he feels that Jean Todt should succeed him as president of the FIA when he steps down.
As a reader I am totally offended by racist remarks. Take it somewhere else. You know who you are.
He who laughs last laughs loudest; don’t think for one moment that the laughing is over when the money is paid. Battles and wars come to mind and the
current “underdog” has years of experience at the game and is very good at it. This F1 is not a sport it is big boys with huge egos playing with
serious toys and the politics are just the same, serious. FA has been far too transparent and will pay eventually for his indiscretion. LH, despite
the little boy lost look of late for his public, does not lack backbone or guile – he has been taught by the best..
Machiavelli lives, he just looks like????????????
Those are all very good points. I am both bored and fascinated by the whole F1 thing, including this latest deal. Business is all about backroom deals. I don't run my place like that, but my ego is a bit smaller I think, and I don't have a quest for power.
Erm... check out page 1 of this thread, roughly halfway down the page...
