l just got back after a thuroughly fast enjoyable blat including fish and chips in settle and Macidees hot chocolate all round back in Chorley about 10pm. Went in the Pheonix and we gave the cars quite a thrashing. Got a charge light on the dash juys coming to Chorley, heard a bit of a clunk while sat at the lights. Checked it out at MacDonalds and couldnt see anything untowards. We parted our ways and I drove home. About a mile from home another clunk and whhhhiiirrrrrr the engine stops and I freewheel to a side street. Get the bonnet up and theres my cam belt sat in the engine bay and it must have fell out with the pullies as they weren't hanging out together. The alternator belt had left home alltogether and was nowhere to be seen. My guess is that the fan belt snapped at the lights and hit the cam belt knocking it mostly of the front of the vernier pullies and the drive home finished it off. There was no nast noises from the engine so I'm hoping there isnt any valve damage etc. It's a 1.8 K series rover engine. Anyone know what the likelyhood of damage is and how to find out?

probably not what you want to hear, but almost certainly you will have valve damage. sorry mate

Depends where the camshafts were when the belts snapped.
Take the head off and have a look. It will be worth it for the sake of a £40 gasket set.

I'd say you'd be extremley lucky if you got away with it

Sorry m8

Rich

Sadly you're are virtually certain to have bent at least some of the exhaust valves

Take the plugs out and have a look, any damage to these means pretty terminal engine damage; the heads can snap off the valves and embed themselves into the piston if you are really unlucky. Otherwise you could time the engine up with a new belt and do a compression test, but don't get your hopes up.

New valves aren't particularly expensive though, and it's not such a bad job.

[Edited on 31/8/10 by MikeRJ]

definately bent the valves! question is how many head off to find out its the only way


when its all done put a timing belt cover on it amazing how man cars i see with out them just asking for problems like you have had or a stray stone jamming the works up

[Edited on 8/31/2010 by DRC INDY 7]

As said above really, it's an interferance engine, so almost certain to have damage of some sort. Ray

Almost always bend valves but I have seen a couple get away with it. Fit a new belt and try the compresions (or just try starting) is the fastest way to find out.

I take it you've no belt covers. I'll never understand why people risk not having them.

adrian

quote:

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Originally posted by adithorp
I take it you've no belt covers. I'll never understand why people risk not having them.

adrian

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Like this. Idealy you should get yourself a cam locking tool since it makes things simpler and easier, but it's possible to do it without if you are very careful.

Don't know if this is of any help but I have a Rover 420 with a good engine which would be available in a week or so.
Done about 80k if I remeber correctly.

yours for scrap money plus a beer token.

Car is MOT and Tax so you could drive it to its final resting place.

Pick up from Salisbury

Don't try a compression test it will cause much more serious damage ---

Most likely at the moment just a few bent valves --- for some strange reason usually an odd number like 5 (!) .

Combustion chamber and valve guide damage is more than possible.

From your description the probable cause is the bottom pulley wasn't fitted properly.
The pulley and all the sprockets need carefully fitted with a tiny dab of Loctite when refitted.


Now the good news 1.8 heads are the same as 1.6 and 1.4 heads ----no difference.
However heads from engines fitted with coil packs have significant differences from those with distributors. the oldeer type heads can be used on later engines with a bit of work,

"...Most likely at the moment just a few bent valves --- for some strange reason usually an odd number like 5 (!) ...."

I thought you knew everything. It's the evil valve fairy's!

adrian

quote:

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Originally posted by adithorp
"...Most likely at the moment just a few bent valves --- for some strange reason usually an odd number like 5 (!) ...."

I thought you knew everything. It's the evil valve fairy's!

adrian

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What a wonderful place to visit to cheer oneself up up when one has just broke ya mota

So many options! The engine has caterham cams, vernier pullies, fettled bike throttle bodies with the original injectors revs to 7800rpm (or did ) has an Emerald 3 ECU. I need to make sure whatever I do I can keep this performance (or more) and utilise the bits that help it have it. So the options for performance and low cost.

1. Exchange head and use existing cams.
2. Replace engine and swap bits.
3. Check and replace valves and do head.
4. Any other series engine same fitting?? (2.0 turbo rover?)
5. V V T although the builder did say there was a problem to fit on in on the size of the infection. Couldnt the existing TB's/injection go onto a V V T?
6 Will a T series fit? does it have different engine mounts etc?

I leave it in the hands of you wise jedi motor lords.

Ta veri much.

[Edited on 1/9/10 by FFTS]

I doubt an auxillary drive belt failure (fan belt) would fetch the cambelt off, as its sat behind it behind its own cover. In my experience its more than likely going to be the cambelt tensioner failing which would throw the belt off. Or possibly the bottom pulley as previously mentioned.
Bent valves are a certainty

quote:

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Originally posted by britishtrident
Now the good news 1.8 heads are the same as 1.6 and 1.4 heads ----no difference.

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quote:

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Originally posted by FFTS

5. V V T although the builder did say there was a problem to fit on in on the size of the infection. Couldnt the existing TB's/injection go onto a V V T?

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quote:

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Originally posted by britishtrident
Don't try a compression test it will cause much more serious damage

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Sorry to tell you but mine let go pulling away from the lights at very slow speed, the resulting damage was 14 valves bent with two of them so bad they broke the casting around the guides.

£400 for a new head with new stretch bolts and klinger gasket.

It then went on to give me another 60K miles of trouble free motoring.

quote:

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Originally posted by Liam

quote:

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Originally posted by britishtrident
Don't try a compression test it will cause much more serious damage

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Out of interest, what further damage could be done that has not already ocurred in the original incident? Cos that's exactly what I did on my Omega V6 tintop . A camshaft pulley came loose, said hi to the adjacent one, then locked up and ate the cambelt

As I had a new cambelt kit I fit it to do a compression test. That revealed I'd gotten away with it on one bank (ironically the bank on which the camshaft pulleys came together) but had bent valves on the other bank. So fortunately I only had one head swap to do. What nasty further damage might I have done, though?

[Edited on 1/9/10 by Liam]

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The heads are priced higher than whole engines so my advice would be look for a complete 1.4 engine (or buy a cheap Rover 25 at auction and sell the bits) but swap the head over. Just swap the head complete with cams and get it running ---- the cams are very easy to swap at a later date.

VVC engine swap isn't a good idea they aren't any better just have better mid range driveability and are much more complex and your cams won't fit.

If your ECU uses the cam sensor you ideally you need a post 1999 head (EU3 "coil pack head) these use an impoved (automatic) cam belt tensioner and slightly wider cam belt for longer cam belt change intervals. The two types of cam belt tensioner require a simple mod to the head to swap over.

These engines are very easy to work on but the workshop manual procedures must be followed to the letter.

It is a common misconception that new head bolts are required --- this is not the case officially Rover state they can be re-used 5 times. When fitting new or refitting old head bolts the bolts should be cleaned with kerosene, gas oil or wd40 and allowed to drip dry. They should then be tested to see they will screw down the full length of the thread by hand far enough to clamp the head ---- any burr or tightness on the thread will render the initial torquing of the head bolts invalid. When cleaning the bolts I chase the threads of the bolts with a fixed size hex nut to avoid problems.

For an engine overhaul manual ebay for Rover Rave CD ---- read it before you start stripping the engine.

The Draper timing belt locking tool isn't essential but helps particularly if you are swapping the heads straight over and only costs a couple of quid off the net.

With this tool you can fit the timing belt at the top then slip it over the bottom sprocket last --- which is much less of a fiddle.

What is essential is a good low range 3/8" drive torque wrench for the head bolts and some Loctite for the sprocket bolts.


Last bit of advice is check the bottom sprocket and pulley for damage or slack fit on the crank.

[Edited on 1/9/10 by britishtrident]

Personally I'd put a belt on, turn it by hand without plugs to feel for anything catching and then with to feel for compression and if it felt ok try starting it.
I've never had one that turned that didn't either run or just needed a few valves (you'll feel the lack of compression). If you feel anything tap or lock up, then strip it down instead of starting.
If it's not too bad and just bent valves (9/10times is) then replace them and rebuild as it is. I'm sure we can walk you through it.

adrian

Some good info' above

If as suspected you have bent a few valves, Inspect the valve guides very carefully
Have seen engines that haven't had the Valve guides checked/replaced fail shortly afterwards

UPDATE!!!Bottom pulley fell off and nothing present to keep it on and hence the belt parted company. Head now off and all valves made some contact with the pistons but the good news is no contact with the bores at all and no loose bits broken off the valves so I guess another head will suffice as I wouldn't think the marks on the pistons should cause any real problems.

4 like this..







[Edited on 1/9/10 by FFTS]

Check the bottom sprocket is a snug fit on the crank, if the bottom pulley has been slack it is likely to have wear. Cure is to Loctite it on to the crank with Red Loctite bearing fit.

Also check the condition of the cam sprocket roll pins --- known for them to crack if the valves tangle.

[Edited on 2/9/10 by britishtrident]

What would normally keep the bottom pulley on? Surely there should be a bolt/clip/nut or something but there's nothing there now? or is it just a taper fit and smack the B*******rd on hehe.

Not sure the year of the engine but it has a separate coil and a distributor cap on then end of one cam. What head should I be looking for?

This sounds good but don't know if it's suitable.

Ebay Linky

[Edited on 2/9/10 by FFTS]

To keep it simple any K16 head from 1994 to 1999 will fit straight on with no mods. Specs are the same from 1.4 to 1.8 turbo.

You are highly unlikely to come across the very early small port sand cast head as these were really just a limited production run in very early 90s --- easy to spot as these engines used an alloy manifold later used on the VVC.

If you used the later (post 1999) coil pack head you would need to use the latter type cam belt tensioner and swap over the distributer drive.

We reasembling the pip on the bottom sprocket should be in the 3 o'clock position --- this gives exactly 1/2 stroke BUT you should do a sanity check by measuring down the bores all the pistons should be the same distance from the head face.

After putting the belt turn the engine two full turns by hand line up the timing marks on the cam sprockets and bottom pulley/sprocket and check the crank position again by measuring down the plug holes with a long plastic or wooden dowl------- I usuall cut a bit from from a plastic coat hanger.


Once the engine is running and the bottom end is proved OK you can think about changing the cams over --- it is a real fiddle of a job because getting the cam carrier to head joint needs time care and attention to detailed cleaning.
I have seen heads ruined because too much gasket sealer was used on reassembly.

[Edited on 2/9/10 by britishtrident]

The bottom pulley is held on by a long bolt and special springy washer ---- no locking tab -- use locktite.

ebay item 170511163451