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250-300bhp reliable engine choices

Calzonii - 3/6/15 at 12:10 AM

Ive been sitting here all night trawling thru posts trying to decide what engine will to produce this power. Getting tired and have made little headway..

Can anyone tell me the best way of making around 250-300bhp in an MK indy r RELIABLY? My initial thought was a supercharge a duratec or zetec or something but im not sure anymore. What about cosworth engine?

I would also like a setup thats installed commonly so if I have any problems mid build I can turn to locostbuilders for advice from all you guys so try to keep it simple.

What setup is best to achieve this easiest? My budget is around Ł12-15k but the lower the better obviously.

Thanks

jeffw - 3/6/15 at 05:16 AM

12-15K for the engine alone?

livelee - 3/6/15 at 06:33 AM

Dunnell Engines? http://www.dunnellengines.com/home.php

I've got an option 6 kit zetec in my car, it's only recently completed but so far so good. The top zetec (option 7) kit should get you, just, into the 250+ range. The duratec option will push on towards 300.

Give Paul a call, he'll advise options and prices.

[Edited on 3/6/15 by livelee]

Ivan - 3/6/15 at 07:42 AM

I would be looking at the SAAB, Nissan, Opel/Vauxhall, VW/Audi and Volvo range of turbo charged 4 cylinder motors. Any of those should comfortably and very reliably do what you want with minimal mods.

[Edited on 3/6/15 by Ivan]

loggyboy - 3/6/15 at 07:43 AM

Whats the planned use of car?

russbost - 3/6/15 at 08:21 AM

Cheapest way has to be the Saab 93, you can buy a complete car for a lot less than a grand & it needs (I believe) just bigger injectors & some turbo mods, 300BHP with no internal engine mods has to be the way to go. You then just need to pickup a suitable gearbox & prop, I believe the Omega 3.0 MV6 will fit.
Alternatively bolt a Rotrex supercharger to a 'Busa or ZZR1400 & you'll get around 250 - 300bhp reliably providing the engine is properly installed & won't suffer oil surge

Adding a turbo to a Zetec or Duratec is going to require a lot of (very expensive) internal mods if you want it to be reliable

coozer - 3/6/15 at 08:27 AM

I'm aiming for 350 on a 2.0 zetec.

Intended mods are 8.0 comp ratio forged pistons and h beam rods, obviously a turbo as well.

Doctor Derek Doctors - 3/6/15 at 09:06 AM

For reliability a Honda S2000 with some very light tuning would/could be your best choice, the closer the engine is to OEM standard the more reliable it will be and the S2000 is 230bhp (I think) already.

isn't there an entire S2000,in the for sale section for Ł4.5k? You could probably break the car and sell what's left after taking the engine to get a good chunk of that back.

jeffw - 3/6/15 at 09:12 AM

http://www.tts-performance.co.uk/#!honda-s2000/cn7h

tegwin - 3/6/15 at 09:12 AM

VW audi group 1.8T engine (BAM engine code)... As fitted to the TT, Seat leon cupra R (2003 ish era)...

225hp as standard... remappable to 290 or so... can achieve 350 with a hybred turbo and new injectors...

Pretty heavy and tall engines but very well put together.

kingster996 - 3/6/15 at 09:22 AM

S2000 on throttle bodies = 261bhp linky

But that lump is a big un and I doubt it will fit in an MK - so if you have a total budget of Ł12k -Ł15k then a Westy is probably of range (might just do it for Ł15k if you are very lucky).

DaveB666 has a Nissan turbo in his Locost - see this thread so that means it should also fit an MK.

[Edited on 3/6/15 by kingster996]

wylliezx9r - 3/6/15 at 09:23 AM

S2000 (F20C) is nearly there and as a bonus you get one of the sweetest shifting 6 speed boxes there is, you wont get that with a ford type 9 etc.
To get a Ford Duartec/Zetec etc to this power normally aspirated you are talking silly money and unknown reliability and you'll still have a 25 year old gear box.

wylliezx9r - 3/6/15 at 09:25 AM

quote:
Originally posted by kingster996
S2000 on throttle bodies = 261bhp linky

But that lump is a big un and I doubt it fit in an MK - so if you have a total budget of Ł12k -Ł15K then a Westy is probably of range (might just do it for Ł15 if you are very astute).

DaveB666 has a Nissan turbo in his Locost - see this thread so that means it should also fit an MK.

[Edited on 3/6/15 by kingster996]

S2000 engine fits in an INDY its already been done.

kingster996 - 3/6/15 at 09:25 AM

quote:
Originally posted by wylliezx9rS2000 engine fits in an INDY its already been done.

Ooh - interesting - and I stand corrected!

Calzonii - 3/6/15 at 09:39 AM

I think the S2000 is becoming more appealing! Ill check out the forsale list and see if I could get a good donor. Ill also have a word with the boys at MK and see what they reccommend.

That is insane power kingster!! Looks very nice

wyllie does addijg throttle bodies make it too large for fit in an MK?

bigfoot4616 - 3/6/15 at 10:24 AM

quote:
Originally posted by wylliezx9r
S2000 (F20C) is nearly there and as a bonus you get one of the sweetest shifting 6 speed boxes there is, you wont get that with a ford type 9 etc.
To get a Ford Duartec/Zetec etc to this power normally aspirated you are talking silly money and unknown reliability and you'll still have a 25 year old gear box.

yes it will cost a lot to get 250+ from a duratec but i don't agree with unknown reliability, plenty of cars are running them with no problems. also if your spending that much money on the engine you may as well spend a bit more on a decent box. caterham 6 speed is meant to be good or even better go sequential.

personally i much prefer NA in a lightweight car(infact for me any car) but if going FI i would prefer a supercharger.

kingster996 - 3/6/15 at 11:20 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Calzonii
I think the S2000 is becoming more appealing! Ill check out the forsale list and see if I could get a good donor. Ill also have a word with the boys at MK and see what they reccommend.

That is insane power kingster!! Looks very nice

Yes, there's a few really nice S2000's that have been IVA'd this year on the WSCC forum - mine's a measly 168bhp Zetec, but will do me for now

wylliezx9r - 3/6/15 at 11:23 AM

quote:
Originally posted by bigfoot4616

quote:
Originally posted by wylliezx9r
S2000 (F20C) is nearly there and as a bonus you get one of the sweetest shifting 6 speed boxes there is, you wont get that with a ford type 9 etc.
To get a Ford Duartec/Zetec etc to this power normally aspirated you are talking silly money and unknown reliability and you'll still have a 25 year old gear box.

yes it will cost a lot to get 250+ from a duratec but i don't agree with unknown reliability, plenty of cars are running them with no problems. also if your spending that much money on the engine you may as well spend a bit more on a decent box. caterham 6 speed is meant to be good or even better go sequential.

personally i much prefer NA in a lightweight car(infact for me any car) but if going FI i would prefer a supercharger.

What I mean is; I have seen plenty of F20C engines with 100k plus on them with no problems. If going down the tuned Duratec/Zetec route it's unknown (to me at least) how long they are expected to last in that state of tune, I'm not saying they won't.

I think the budget stated is for the whole car not just the engine.

[Edited on 3/6/15 by wylliezx9r]

907 - 3/6/15 at 11:49 AM

How about a nice Lycoming?

Light, powerful, and reliable down to the last nut & bolt.

I bet that would fly.

Paul Turner - 3/6/15 at 11:57 AM

quote:
Originally posted by bigfoot4616

personally i much prefer NA in a lightweight car(infact for me any car) but if going FI i would prefer a supercharger.

I too prefer N/A in a lightweight car but I now prefer a turbo in my road car, either petrol or diesel, currently have both on the drive.

I have owned a supercharged car and at the time I thought it was pretty good compared to turbo's of old. But compared to a modern turbo it was totally pants, would not want another.

Drove a supercharged Seven back in the early 90's. It certainly had adequate of power from its otherwise standard XR3i engine but it did not appear to be very exciting in the way that my slightly less powerful N/A x-flow was.

The worst turbo car I have ever driven was a 1982 turbo technics XR3i. It was sold officially by Ford at the time by a small number of dealers before the release of the RS turbo. Power from the engine was pretty sensational but turbo lag was horrendous as was torque steer. The steering issue was simply because the chassis was standard as were the brakes and tyres, totally inadequate for the performance. Should never have been sold.

It put me off turbo's until 1996 when I bought a Golf Tdi.

jeffw - 3/6/15 at 12:02 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUxdiTjDXU0

Stock S2000 with Rotrex kit....460BHP

jeffw - 3/6/15 at 12:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by 907
How about a nice Lycoming?

Light, powerful, and reliable down to the last nut & bolt.

I bet that would fly.

lol

bigfoot4616 - 3/6/15 at 12:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by wylliezx9r

I think the budget stated is for the whole car not just the engine.

[Edited on 3/6/15 by wylliezx9r]

takes a tuned duratec and decent gearbox out of the equation then if that's the case

Calzonii - 3/6/15 at 02:26 PM

Yeah budget for whole kit.. 12-15 on engine would be nice.. But id be living rough then!

Jeffw- nice youtube link!

Calzonii - 3/6/15 at 02:27 PM

I think im going to go S2000 if it has forged internals and can take the power upgrade at some stage in the future then that is perfect for me. Plus if I change the throttle bodies on it and get about 250 thats sweet as a nut... For now..

jeffw - 3/6/15 at 02:44 PM

There is a guy on SKCC with a S2000 engine GBS so a number of people have done this reliable.

Paul Turner - 3/6/15 at 03:06 PM

Other than for bragging rights I cannot see why people have this fixation with huge amounts of power.

First thing is a lightweight car will struggle to put all that power down in a strait line let alone a corner.

The only place you can use it safely is on a trackday and then its still more pleasurable to get your lap times out of a good handling car than one with pointless amounts of power.

I have had a Seven now for over 26 years. My first had a X-Flow with about 125 bhp. At that time I could thrash it on the road with little concern about cameras and traffic patrols and have good fun. As time as gone by the roads have got busier and cameras prolific. I had a Zetec with 208 bhp in the car for about 4 years but when that went pop due an oil pressure relief valve issue I replaced it with a standard engine producing about 175 bhp. I do not miss the extra 33 bhp, in truth I hardly ever got the chance to use it except for the occasional track day.

My favourite road trip is still Cadwell early on a Sunday Morning. Its about 70 miles and back in the 80's I could get there in just under one hour. Its all single carriageway roads except for a short bit of dual carriageway round Lincoln, to average 70 mph meant doing somewhat illegal speeds. For the last 10 years its taken me about and hour and 20 minutes on a good day with both the 208 and 175 bhp engines. More power would not get me there any faster so why pay stupid money for something you cannot use.

The Zetec in my car is a bog standard crate Blacktop with Jenvey TB's and an MBE ECU. The engine cost me Ł700, why pay more.

About 12 years ago an experienced driver turned up at Curborough with a Busa Turbo powered Dax, just over 300 BHP. It flew down the strait (barely under control at times) but round the twisty bits it was a total dog. The Ł150 Zetec out of a scrapper I had in the car at the time was faster on a lap. He was not happy.

Power is not always the answer.

sdh2903 - 3/6/15 at 04:23 PM

I've been weighing up the options recently too, albeit my aspirations for power were a little lower at 200bhp. One thing that came into the equation for me was 'what will it cost to replace the engine if it all goes pop?'

Zetec - anywhere from 100 to 700 for a brand new one
duratec - standard mondeo 250 to 500 for a fiesta st lump.
F20c - 1500-2500. Big differences.

Since this I've actually decided to go down the mx5 route. Partly because mnr were doing a cracking offer on a starter kit and secondly because my donor engine is in excellent condition. I've been running the sums and for a solid reliable not too laggy 200bhp I'm looking at Ł1500 and if I get all pOwer hungry in the future it still has potential. Also replacement engines are plentiful and cheap as chips.

coozer - 3/6/15 at 04:37 PM

I'm looking to get the zetec built for under 3k..

Wossner pistons and rods Ł900
Block honed and decked Ł200??
Exhaust manifold Ł125
Turbo Ł160
Gaskets, belts etc Ł100
Valve springs Ł150??
3" exhaust Ł2/300??
Ecu, not sure, budget Ł800

ŁŁ means not sure on price..

Does this look realistic??

ian locostzx9rc2 - 3/6/15 at 04:43 PM

I changed my x flow for a 16v Toyota 4age now about 135 to 140 hp car weights with me in about 600 kgs plenty quick enough for the road and trackdays part of the fun of trackdays in a lower powered car is being as quick as cars you really shouldn't be
also the more hp you have the more expensive everything gets and things start breaking ..

wylliezx9r - 3/6/15 at 04:43 PM

quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
I've been weighing up the options recently too, albeit my aspirations for power were a little lower at 200bhp. One thing that came into the equation for me was 'what will it cost to replace the engine if it all goes pop?'

Zetec - anywhere from 100 to 700 for a brand new one
duratec - standard mondeo 250 to 500 for a fiesta st lump.
F20c - 1500-2500. Big differences.

Since this I've actually decided to go down the mx5 route. Partly because mnr were doing a cracking offer on a starter kit and secondly because my donor engine is in excellent condition. I've been running the sums and for a solid reliable not too laggy 200bhp I'm looking at Ł1500 and if I get all pOwer hungry in the future it still has potential. Also replacement engines are plentiful and cheap as chips.

The S2000 F20C looks expensive until you price up a 240 bhp Duratec. And as I've said before you get a really sweet gearbox as well.

daniel mason - 3/6/15 at 04:47 PM

If you break a damaged s2000 with low miles and in good order inside. You'll get the engine,6 speed box and 4.1 lsd for pretty much free!
When I did mine I think it had done 40k and was around Ł3k for the car. Electric roof,seats,body panels, etc are all worth good money to sell on,
I think Andrew Jackson on here may have a complete engine in his garage.send him a message and ask. Unijacko67

bigfoot4616 - 3/6/15 at 04:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
Other than for bragging rights I cannot see why people have this fixation with huge amounts of power.

Power is not always the answer.

a bloke i know upgraded his caterham R400 engine to R500 spec and ended up selling it not long after claiming it was more fun to drive before hand.
i think if he'd kept it and got used to it he would of got as much fun out of it and quicker lap times but it goes to show you don't need masses of power to have fun. i would of thought 250bhp in a light car is probably about right, its roughly what i would be aiming for if i moved away from bike engines.

sdh2903 - 3/6/15 at 05:36 PM

quote:
Originally posted by wylliezx9r

The S2000 F20C looks expensive until you price up a 240 bhp Duratec. And as I've said before you get a really sweet gearbox as well.

I totally agree. As a standard package the f20c is phenomenal if you can get a chassis to suit. And the potential gains from supercharging are compelling. As already said gearboxes for the zetec and duratec for big power start getting expensive.

daniel mason - 3/6/15 at 05:55 PM

I can't see the need for supercharging or turbo in a 7 which is 240bhp to start with? You will never be able to use all the 240bhp on the public highways without risking life or license! And on track it will be more than enough for a mere mortal.if it's a serious competition car,running huge slicks etc then I can see instances where the power would be nice but other than that a standard s2000 would be ballistic! As would a standard 1000cc fireblade or similar in a light chassis

Davey D - 3/6/15 at 07:07 PM

For my next build some time in the future I'd love to build a 7 car with the engine/transmission/diff out of a jag s type with the 3.0 duratec v6. 240bhp as standard, but removing all of the Unnecessary stuff ups the power a bit more

Mr C - 3/6/15 at 07:36 PM

Posted in the other thread, so cut a long story short.. as Jeff, S2000 with TTS kit fitted at some point.

matt5964 - 3/6/15 at 07:56 PM

I have a crated zetec jenvey said, k6 emerald, dunnell head work, cams, arp, bigger injectors, light flywheel simpson exhaustetc and have 221.3 bhp and 178.9ft/lb. could of had more but did not want to Larry on running costs and price as all that I've had done was reasonable price for N/A

Reliable all day done sever track days and plenty road driving. More than enough go

You can't beat N/A for noise,response or smile factor

Can highly recommend Paul at Dunnell, Dave at Emerald and Matt at Simpson

[Edited on 3/6/15 by matt5964]

Ugg10 - 3/6/15 at 08:04 PM

No one has suggested one of my favourite engines - a tvr ajp8!

Very small and relatively light for a v8, 350-420hp all day, free t5 gearbox. Can be had for around Ł3-4k.

Woukd spund epic in a seven as well.

There is also the m3 straight six as fittec to the Gkd legend, this will stretch the budget though.

Pojo - 3/6/15 at 08:07 PM

Hi Davey D

thats exactly what i am doing, lucky for me its in a luego viento, so plenty of room in the engine bay. Engine untouched apart from a clean, paint, X type sump, new cam cover and sump gaskets.

[img][img]http://locostbuilders.co.uk/upload/2engine installed.jpg[/img[/img]

Pojo - 3/6/15 at 08:09 PM

With picture this time

[img]http://[/img]

Ugg10 - 3/6/15 at 08:30 PM

Do you have a build blog ot website for the luego jag v6. I have a mate whi is putting one in a reliant scimitar who would be interested.

Pojo - 4/6/15 at 07:11 AM

Hi Ugg 10

Sorry, no blog or website, happy to answer any questions and help in any way, he can U2U me or I can supply an email if he is not on this site. Happy building everyone

bombero - 4/6/15 at 09:31 AM

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964
I have a crated zetec jenvey said, k6 emerald, dunnell head work, cams, arp, bigger injectors, light flywheel simpson exhaustetc and have 221.3 bhp and 178.9ft/lb. [Edited on 3/6/15 by matt5964]

O/T - Out of interest, what make and duration of cams are you running? Any pics..

jeffw - 4/6/15 at 11:11 AM

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964

You can't beat N/A for noise,response or smile factor

I would beg to differ....

I understand the N/A is best and you can't use more than 10BHP in a lightweight car on the road attitudes but....how many of the people with these attitudes have driven a high power Rotrex car? I'm not talking Turbos with large torque spikes which spit you off the road but the endless linear push you get from a Rotrex.

will121 - 4/6/15 at 12:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964

You can't beat N/A for noise,response or smile factor

I would beg to differ....

I understand the N/A is best and you can't use more than 10BHP in a lightweight car on the road attitudes but....how many of the people with these attitudes have driven a high power Rotrex car? I'm not talking Turbos with large torque spikes which spit you off the road but the endless linear push you get from a Rotrex.

couldnt agree more, friend has a front wheel drive track day Clio with a Rotrex @380bhp, even though light weight and front wheel drive very controlable and fastest thing ive ever been round Snetterton in

Mr C - 4/6/15 at 01:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner
Other than for bragging rights I cannot see why people have this fixation with huge amounts of power.

A slightly different perspective on your viewspoint.. For me it's about the build and sense of achievement of doing something a little different and challenging and wanting to do something more than a crate engine and throttle bodies, though this is no doubt the sensible option. I don!t progress to be a good driver and gain my pleasures not other ways, including doing something a little different. If all goes to plan then the satisfaction levels are immense. Not discounting the fact I'm a big lump and the extra power comes in handy keeping up with a well driven sensible engined car. If it creates interest and is a discussion point then all well and good, though this isn't the primary purpose for me supersizing the power levels.

Paul Turner - 4/6/15 at 02:11 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr C
Not discounting the fact I'm a big lump and the extra power comes in handy keeping up with a well driven sensible engined car.

I sprinted and hill climbed form the late 80's until about 2002. During that period I won plenty of pots, classes in championships and held a few class records as well. I never had the money to buy the most powerful engine, had a x-flow for virtually all my events, but with careful setting up and big balls I managed to humble many a more powerful and much more expensive motor. A couple spring to mind.

One chap has successfully campaigned a car that was virtually identical to mine for several years over which it was pretty even on results. He bought a BDA that had been successful in a single seater and came with a dyno sheet that showed it had 225 bhp at 11,000 rpm. It was virtually undriveable but he did not listen to my suggestion to change the cams to something far more sensible. He changed the gearbox, diff, suspension all of which improved it slightly but over 3 years he never got close to his old x-flow times and he never beat me. Eventually he decided the engine needed a checkover and immediately the builder suggested he change the cams. To say he was disappointed with the dyno sheet was an understatement, from memory he had lost 30 bhp but the power band had moved down and the torque was considerably improved. But within a couple of events not only was he thrashing my times he was beating outright national class records. The car was basically easy to drive and did not try to kill him everytime he touched the throttle. The better powerband meant it was easy to keep it on the cam. One happy punter who never had a yearning for power again.

Another chap had a bottomless pot of money and enjoyed spending it. He bought a car with a Swindon VX motor fitted, about 230 bhp, and was upset when he failed to match mine and several other competitors times, we had about 150 to 170 bhp at the time. So the engine went back to Swindon and was fuel injected, fitted with a better head, better cams and came back with almost 300 bhp. Still he could not beat us so he gave up and moved to circuit racing. Had the same success there but spent far more money on repairs.

What I really enjoy watching is a N/A bike engined car thrashing mega powerful turbo engined cars simply because it handles and has sensible and usable power. The driver can concentrate on the track instead of waiting for a rush of power coming in a rush trying to kill him. Much easier on both car a driver.

You might be able to keep up in a strait line but road (and tracks) have things called corners and you need to be able to drive round those as well.

If its your first kit keep it sensible. Perhaps you will enjoy the fact that with 170 bhp a Seven type car will leave most other cars on the road in its dust.

jeffw - 4/6/15 at 03:29 PM

So in short

crap driver + no power + ill handling car = loser
crap driver + lots of power + ill handling car= loser

driving god + xflow + well set-up car = winner
driving god + lots of power + well set-up car= big winner

With shades of grey in-between

Thanks for sorting that one out for me Paul.

[Edited on 4/6/15 by jeffw]

coozer - 4/6/15 at 04:00 PM

So, am I wasting my time looking for 350 turbo horses?

I've always wanted another turbo motor after my man Montego...

And Kurt has 420 bhp in his demo car...

jeffw - 4/6/15 at 04:03 PM

Do what you like and have some fun.

Mr C - 4/6/15 at 04:13 PM

Go for it Coozer, the midlana's built of girders so can do with an extra push. All part of the fun, be boring if we did the same thing

Paul Turner - 4/6/15 at 04:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
So in short

crap driver + no power + ill handling car = loser
crap driver + lots of power + ill handling car= loser

driving god + xflow + well set-up car = winner
driving god + lots of power + well set-up car= big winner

With shades of grey in-between

Thanks for sorting that one out for me Paul.

[Edited on 4/6/15 by jeffw]

You missed a couple (which are not in the grey category)

crap driver + lots of power + well set up car = loser

driving god + lots of power (but not drivable) + well set-up car = looser

And I would be tempted to say

novice driver + lots of power + undeveloped car = death wish

Mr C - 4/6/15 at 04:20 PM

Quick summary for you..

Paul's way... Winner

Everyone else's way... Loser

Paul Turner - 4/6/15 at 04:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr C
Quick summary for you..

Paul's way... Winner

Everyone else's way... Loser

Just trying to pass on my almost 27 years of owning a seven.

At the end of the day do what you want but a novice in a 350 bhp car is not sensible IMHO. Build the car, get to know the car and then decide what you want out of it after some miles.

Irony - 4/6/15 at 04:29 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Paul Turner

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
So in short

crap driver + no power + ill handling car = loser
crap driver + lots of power + ill handling car= loser

driving god + xflow + well set-up car = winner
driving god + lots of power + well set-up car= big winner

With shades of grey in-between

Thanks for sorting that one out for me Paul.

[Edited on 4/6/15 by jeffw]

You missed a couple (which are not in the grey category)

crap driver + lots of power + well set up car = loser

driving god + lots of power (but not drivable) + well set-up car = looser

And I would be tempted to say

novice driver + lots of power + undeveloped car = death wish

This is all very well, but who has the most fun?

jeffw - 4/6/15 at 04:43 PM

Me lol

daniel mason - 4/6/15 at 04:45 PM

^^^definately not the dead novice at the bottom
I do agree with Paul to some extent,in the fact that endless power is not always the answer to a fast car! Like he says,the top bike engined guys are very very fast with modearate power.
But on the flip side,not everyone has the same views and there is no correct answer as its personal. Jeff w's car will out drag most things in a straight line,and sounds epic at the same time. But on the hills probably wouldn't be 'at home' so to speak. Which is probably why he doesn't do them!

jeffw - 4/6/15 at 04:52 PM

There is an element of weight involved as well. A 'good' BEC Westfield or Striker will be close to 400Kg and kick out not far off 200BHP. Mine is 630Kg and 397BHP so on short tight circuits I would lose out to a BEC but, at circuits like Goodwood, Combe or Hethel the Phoenix has an aero advantage and the extra power comes into play.

So light nimble cars do best at tight circuits and hillclimbs and lardy fast (epic sounding) cars do best on open fast circuits...who knew !

[Edited on 4/6/15 by jeffw]

daniel mason - 4/6/15 at 04:56 PM

You should write a book in it Jeff! Sure to be a best seller

jeffw - 4/6/15 at 05:04 PM

just remember I'm the top bidder on your auction sonny Jim....less of the cheek !

daniel mason - 4/6/15 at 05:09 PM

I was serious! Teach these boys what power can do!

matt5964 - 4/6/15 at 07:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by bombero

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964
I have a crated zetec jenvey said, k6 emerald, dunnell head work, cams, arp, bigger injectors, light flywheel simpson exhaustetc and have 221.3 bhp and 178.9ft/lb. [Edited on 3/6/15 by matt5964]

O/T - Out of interest, what make and duration of cams are you running? Any pics..

Custom dunnell cams.

Ain't got many pics on hear as its a faff to upload, what do you want to see?pics off have some on track, some of exhaust, engin bay?

matt5964 - 4/6/15 at 07:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964

You can't beat N/A for noise,response or smile factor

I would beg to differ....

I understand the N/A is best and you can't use more than 10BHP in a lightweight car on the road attitudes but....how many of the people with these attitudes have driven a high power Rotrex car? I'm not talking Turbos with large torque spikes which spit you off the road but the endless linear push you get from a Rotrex.

Well I've only driven Honda fn2 charged, merc's charged, charged corrardo and a charged 350z, don't get me wrong they were all good in there own right but.. Prefer N/A

jeffw - 4/6/15 at 08:10 PM

None of those will be Rotrex'ed

wylliezx9r - 4/6/15 at 08:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
None of those will be Rotrex'ed

Stop it Jeff, your making me want to rotrex my S2000 engine now !

jeffw - 4/6/15 at 08:25 PM

Does this help?

or this

[Edited on 4/6/15 by jeffw]

matt5964 - 4/6/15 at 08:40 PM

quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
None of those will be Rotrex'ed

What makes you say that? Granted the g60 was not it was tuned by jab a sport, but the FN2 cert was and I thought the 350z was, and there are plenty about.

http://www.civinfo.com/forum/classifieds-archive/90433-selling-my-intercooled-rotrex-supercharged-fn2-gt-type-r-380bhp-230lbft-13-000-a.html

rotrex supercharger nissan 350z

http://www.tts-performance.co.uk/#!civic-fn2-sport/c8oo

jeffw - 4/6/15 at 08:51 PM

Well the Merc isn't, the G60 isn't and I assumed the rest. Anyway, it is a mute argument and you have stated your position and I've done mine. End of...

beaver34 - 4/6/15 at 09:09 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coozer
So, am I wasting my time looking for 350 turbo horses?

I've always wanted another turbo motor after my man Montego...

And Kurt has 420 bhp in his demo car...

depends what you want, i have just below that in mine and im still smiling from driving it 2 days ago

matt5964 - 4/6/15 at 09:11 PM

Never said it was argument.

Yours cert looks a different kettle of fish from your videos.

What box are you using?

jeffw - 4/6/15 at 09:22 PM

Quaife 60G

matt5964 - 4/6/15 at 09:32 PM

Nice, does that allow you to flat shift. Do you need ecu intervention for that

jeffw - 5/6/15 at 05:20 AM

The box itself doesn't but you can add electronics which senses the position of the potentiometer barrel and therefore 'sees' when you change gear. This event is then sent the ECU which will retard the ignition and thus allows flatshifting.

I have a Geartronics on the car but it is not wired yet so I am lifting the throttle slightly to change up.

Oddified - 5/6/15 at 08:58 AM

The thing i've found with a rotrex compared to turbos or positive displacment type superchargers (Eaton's etc) is the engine runs and drives just like a more powerful/larger NA engine. The engine has exactly the same rev range and characteristics but with a lot more power everywhere.

As for how much power is to much, i think it's more important on how the engine delivers the power in a light weight car. 'Big' power is fine so long as the engine is smooth/tractable and there's no big jumps (such as with a small engine, big turbo and loads of lag) along the way in the power delivery.

Ian

jeffw - 5/6/15 at 10:04 AM

this is exactly my point. Max power is at max revs and torque just keeps on rising

velocitykendal - 5/6/15 at 11:13 AM

quote:
Originally posted by daniel mason
I can't see the need for supercharging or turbo in a 7 which is 240bhp to start with?

Torque?

wylliezx9r - 5/6/15 at 11:47 AM

Crikey Rotrex chargers aint half expensive though, TTS want close to a grand just for the brackets and pulleys

jeffw - 5/6/15 at 12:22 PM

You where expecting to build a car for Ł250 then? It is a fair price for the amount of R&D and manufacturing that goes into it. Of course I'm sure you could do it cheaper.....

Oddified - 5/6/15 at 12:24 PM

As with many things in this hobby, the cost all depends on what you can do yourself. I only bought the supercharger kit itself (charger, pipes, oil cooler, filter..) and then made my own mounts/pulleys/pipework/intake etc.

Ian

Dopdog - 5/6/15 at 01:32 PM

ROTREX, its the only way to go

Ben_Copeland - 5/6/15 at 01:58 PM

Vauxhall Z20LET will go to 300bhp easily. Mines 272bhp and 309ft/lb torque

Relatively cheap and much easier to fit into a 7 than the Saab motor.

View the link in my signature for build thread

Worzey - 5/6/15 at 04:16 PM

Loving the Rotrex charger in mine. The linear power delivery isn't spikes at all and helps get the power down in the 20v 4AGE.

I'm "only" running at 248bhp which is more than enough for general road use and can't really see myself adding any more.

As said before, they aren't cheap but they are incredibly good value

froggy - 6/6/15 at 09:56 PM

A lot of the torque issues with turbo set ups are to do with sizing the turbo and controlling boost as it comes in . I've gone over to a ball bearing blower and have boost linked to rpm and throttle position to avoid huge torque issues . At somewhere like blyton I'm around the same performance in a straight line as the quick lightweight sevens with 450hp and 880kg . Round corners is another matter but I enjoy myself .
From what I've seen the sevens with over 250hp seem to have a harder time connecting it to the Tarmac than the bike engined stuff

cal - 7/6/15 at 08:07 PM

Hey guys just thought i would add in my thoughts here and actually post up for the first time in a few years.
I am surprised that no one has yet mentioned the 1UZFE lexus V8 engine.
Yes its a little on the large side especially at the heads with the quad cam but Ls400s can be had for c.Ł400 making the engine pretty much free.
The engine is 250-275bhp unopened and once you put some decent headers on it making it flow better expect more power. The torque is also pretty good.
Down side is the slush box but if Auto is not your thing then conversions with the W85 or R154 even the Toyota V160/161 have been achieved although i wouldnt suggested trying to get your hands on a V160 series as they are pricey!
If you want to destroy your rear tyres you can even add a turbo with pretty much stock everything else and the ECU and jets will happily run 6/7psi of boost without upgrades.

seems like a locost choice really.

froggy - 7/6/15 at 10:26 PM

my chassis is slightly different to a normal 7 type as the straight run from the rear to front taper is around 10" longer than normal which gives a little more room at the front to get the heads in

Fcck2000 - 8/6/15 at 02:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Calzonii
I think im going to go S2000 if it has forged internals and can take the power upgrade at some stage in the future then that is perfect for me. Plus if I change the throttle bodies on it and get about 250 thats sweet as a nut... For now..

Just a thought 220bhp in my Super six feels like more than enough. On the roads 1st gear has to be fed in and second will leave you spinning if you keep your foot flat. So that really only leaves the last 3 gears of which you would be well over 80 in third gear within a few seconds of leaving second gear.

What I'm trying to say is 220bhp in my 600kg car is seriously quick and more power would mean just pressing the gas pedal less or spinning the wheels more.

I really think this Duratec 215bhp package is a great deal, brand new engine, ECU ready mapped all the sensors throttle bodies etc ready to just bolt in for 7k plus VAT

http://omextechnology.co.uk/Omex%20Duratec%20VVC%20MZR%20Engine%20v1_0.pdf

Obviously it could be done cheaper with a second hand engine etc

Just another option to think about

Paul

beaver34 - 9/6/15 at 08:33 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Fcck2000

quote:
Originally posted by Calzonii
I think im going to go S2000 if it has forged internals and can take the power upgrade at some stage in the future then that is perfect for me. Plus if I change the throttle bodies on it and get about 250 thats sweet as a nut... For now..

Just a thought 220bhp in my Super six feels like more than enough. On the roads 1st gear has to be fed in and second will leave you spinning if you keep your foot flat. So that really only leaves the last 3 gears of which you would be well over 80 in third gear within a few seconds of leaving second gear.

What I'm trying to say is 220bhp in my 600kg car is seriously quick and more power would mean just pressing the gas pedal less or spinning the wheels more.

I really think this Duratec 215bhp package is a great deal, brand new engine, ECU ready mapped all the sensors throttle bodies etc ready to just bolt in for 7k plus VAT

http://omextechnology.co.uk/Omex%20Duratec%20VVC%20MZR%20Engine%20v1_0.pdf

Obviously it could be done cheaper with a second hand engine etc

Just another option to think about

Paul

i suppose it depends on your tyre and drive setup, i have 340bhp and have no wheel spin issues putting that down apart from if im flat in first from the off

im on r888 and axle with a plate diff

Fcck2000 - 9/6/15 at 08:56 AM

I agree it does depend on setup.
Currently on 888s protect double adjustable and installed and corner weighted by Northampton motor sports. My main thought is the diff which I intend to install one of the atb variants later this year.

Honestly, with the power you have in your kit do you ever manage to keep your foot to the floor on a road for more than 3 seconds? I manage little squirts but the speed builds up so quick I end up backing off. Obvs in straight lines on dual carriage ways it might be different but I'm talking about nice driving type roads.

Paul

bombero - 9/6/15 at 08:56 AM

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964

quote:
Originally posted by bombero

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964
I have a crated zetec jenvey said, k6 emerald, dunnell head work, cams, arp, bigger injectors, light flywheel simpson exhaustetc and have 221.3 bhp and 178.9ft/lb. [Edited on 3/6/15 by matt5964]

O/T - Out of interest, what make and duration of cams are you running? Any pics..

Custom dunnell cams.

Ain't got many pics on hear as its a faff to upload, what do you want to see?pics off have some on track, some of exhaust, engin bay?

Hi Matt, exhaust and engine bay would be much appreciated!

matt5964 - 9/6/15 at 12:25 PM

quote:
Originally posted by bombero

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964

quote:
Originally posted by bombero

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964
I have a crated zetec jenvey said, k6 emerald, dunnell head work, cams, arp, bigger injectors, light flywheel simpson exhaustetc and have 221.3 bhp and 178.9ft/lb. [Edited on 3/6/15 by matt5964]

O/T - Out of interest, what make and duration of cams are you running? Any pics..

Custom dunnell cams.

Ain't got many pics on hear as its a faff to upload, what do you want to see?pics off have some on track, some of exhaust, engin bay?

Hi Matt, exhaust and engine bay would be much appreciated!

Have a look at my photo archive, if they dint suffice.. Let me know.

bombero - 9/6/15 at 12:46 PM

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964

quote:
Originally posted by bombero

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964

quote:
Originally posted by bombero

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964
I have a crated zetec jenvey said, k6 emerald, dunnell head work, cams, arp, bigger injectors, light flywheel simpson exhaustetc and have 221.3 bhp and 178.9ft/lb. [Edited on 3/6/15 by matt5964]

O/T - Out of interest, what make and duration of cams are you running? Any pics..

Custom dunnell cams.

Ain't got many pics on hear as its a faff to upload, what do you want to see?pics off have some on track, some of exhaust, engin bay?

Hi Matt, exhaust and engine bay would be much appreciated!

Have a look at my photo archive, if they dint suffice.. Let me know.

(Such a newbie question) but sorry, how do I do that..?

jeffw - 9/6/15 at 01:04 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Fcck2000

Honestly, with the power you have in your kit do you ever manage to keep your foot to the floor on a road for more than 3 seconds? I manage little squirts but the speed builds up so quick I end up backing off. Obvs in straight lines on dual carriage ways it might be different but I'm talking about nice driving type roads.

Paul

Is that you criteria for having fun in a kit?

kingster996 - 9/6/15 at 01:06 PM

quote:
Originally posted by bombero
(Such a newbie question) but sorry, how do I do that..?

Rab, you click the "photo archive" link with the little arrow, just above "building" under the user's details on the left of a post

[edit] - or here: http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/photos.php?action=gal&user=matt5964

[Edited on 9/6/15 by kingster996]

beaver34 - 9/6/15 at 01:44 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Fcck2000
I agree it does depend on setup.
Currently on 888s protect double adjustable and installed and corner weighted by Northampton motor sports. My main thought is the diff which I intend to install one of the atb variants later this year.

Honestly, with the power you have in your kit do you ever manage to keep your foot to the floor on a road for more than 3 seconds? I manage little squirts but the speed builds up so quick I end up backing off. Obvs in straight lines on dual carriage ways it might be different but I'm talking about nice driving type roads.

Paul

i find that i dont need to use more than half throttle under normal fun road usage its goes as fast as you press the pedal

or i will use full throttle up to around 4-5k then just back out as the power builds

it actually feels like you being fired out of a cannon is addictive, near enough pointless and far slower point to point then my Elise that has half the power but nothing is more fun which is what i wanted

a good diff makes a huge difference, your should not light the tyres really apart from top end of 1st i would think

bombero - 9/6/15 at 06:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by kingster996

quote:
Originally posted by bombero
(Such a newbie question) but sorry, how do I do that..?

Rab, you click the "photo archive" link with the little arrow, just above "building" under the user's details on the left of a post

[edit] - or here: http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/photos.php?action=gal&user=matt5964

[Edited on 9/6/15 by kingster996]

Cheers, Chris!

bombero - 9/6/15 at 07:01 PM

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964

quote:
Originally posted by bombero

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964

quote:
Originally posted by bombero

quote:
Originally posted by matt5964
I have a crated zetec jenvey said, k6 emerald, dunnell head work, cams, arp, bigger injectors, light flywheel simpson exhaustetc and have 221.3 bhp and 178.9ft/lb. [Edited on 3/6/15 by matt5964]

O/T - Out of interest, what make and duration of cams are you running? Any pics..

Custom dunnell cams.

Ain't got many pics on hear as its a faff to upload, what do you want to see?pics off have some on track, some of exhaust, engin bay?

Hi Matt, exhaust and engine bay would be much appreciated!

Have a look at my photo archive, if they dint suffice.. Let me know.

Matt, photo archive is perfect - thanks!