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Author: Subject: No Such thing as 'Road Tax' and Cyclists
davidimurray

posted on 15/8/13 at 12:16 PM Reply With Quote
No Such thing as 'Road Tax' and Cyclists

Just been reading this over lunch and it got my blood boiling :-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-23694438

Ok, so there is no such thing as road tax but why do Cyclists seem to think it is their right to what the hell they like on the roads!

Every road user - scooters, cars, motorbikes, lorries, cars & trailers, HGV, PCV, Tractors etc etc has to have a licence - i.e. some formal training and meet a required standard, must be checked that is is safe to be on the road and have valid insurance. They don't even have rear-view mirrors!!!

I have got nothing against cycling in general, or correct responsible cycling. But some of what you see on the roads is terrible, cyclist running red lights constantly, not signalling and turning across in front of cars, filtering at manic speed through tiny gaps, running on and off payments, riding two abreast. I bet if I did all that on my motorbike I wouldn't last long before the Police had words!

And of course cyclist can and do cause accidents. A few years ago a friend of mine was riding down the road on his 6 month old GSXR1000, below the speed limit (20 in a 30) . Suddenly a suited cyclist (no helmet of course) rode off the adjacent pavement hit the bike at a 45 degree angle. Knocked my mate off and sent bike down the road. Police were not interested and as the cyclist had no insurance could not claim against him, even tried against his house insurance. Left him very out of pcoket!

So why do we not have a basic cycling qualification and a licence you have to renew every few years?





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dave107

posted on 15/8/13 at 12:29 PM Reply With Quote
Makes my blood boil also how motorbikes squeeze through tiny gaps to get to the front at traffic lights then speed of like they are in a race, change from lane to lane and for some reason they have a special lane just for them down the centre of the road where the diagonal lines are which I thought was a now go area for all of us, and then you have the car drivers that virtually swerve of the road to let them pass, and I have nothing against motor bike riders, rant rant rant


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clanger

posted on 15/8/13 at 12:32 PM Reply With Quote
I ride and commute on my bike in all weathers. Soon as I leave my drive "everyone" is out to kill me and I ride accordingly.
If it means p$$in off a few impatient motorists, then so be it.
Try signalling when you're trying to dodge hospital sized potholes and I-phone punching idiots behind the wheel..........
I'd gladly pay vehicle tax to ride my pushbike, but as long as I could quite happily rid in the middle of the lane at 15mph with some loony trying to have me off for hogging his share f road tax tarmac.
Get yourself a bike and give it a go, it could change your mind.
I pay "tax" on 4 vehicles so surely qualify for a bit of space????

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MikeRJ

posted on 15/8/13 at 12:34 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dave107
Makes my blood boil also how motorbikes squeeze through tiny gaps to get to the front at traffic lights


Why does that make your blood boil? As long as they don't damage your car, what difference does it make to you, since you are very unlikely to get held up by them?

quote:
Originally posted by dave107
for some reason they have a special lane just for them down the centre of the road where the diagonal lines are which I thought was a now go area for all of us,



Seems like you need to brush up on your highway code. If a hatched area is bounded by dashed lines then there is no law preventing you from entering them. If they are bounded by a solid line then you must not enter them (except for usual execptions: to avoid an accident, instructed to do so by police, to overtake a cyclist moving under 10mph etc)

Being able to filter in traffic is one of the primary advantages of a bike, which partly offsets some of the many disadvantages. Get yourself a bike and you can also learn to filter and reduce your journey time.

[Edited on 15/8/13 by MikeRJ]

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coyoteboy

posted on 15/8/13 at 12:35 PM Reply With Quote
quote:

Ok, so there is no such thing as road tax but why do Cyclists seem to think it is their right to what the hell they like on the roads!



They don't. Some do, just the same as some drivers do.


quote:

Every road user - scooters, cars, motorbikes, lorries, cars & trailers, HGV, PCV, Tractors etc etc has to have a licence - i.e. some formal training and meet a required standard, must be checked that is is safe to be on the road and have valid insurance. They don't even have rear-view mirrors!!!



Because they offer a significantly lower risk to other road users, much like pedestrians. Would you like pedestrians to have licenses to use the roads too? And have insurance? And what good are rear view mirrors to a cyclist - they just have to turn their head.

quote:

But some of what you see on the roads is terrible, cyclist running red lights constantly, not signalling and turning across in front of cars, filtering at manic speed through tiny gaps, running on and off payments, riding two abreast. I bet if I did all that on my motorbike I wouldn't last long before the Police had words!



I see that day in day our from car drivers and motorcyclists too. Add to that speeding which pretty much every single driver does. Having licenses doesn't seem to stop any of that and they're notably more dangerous.

quote:
And of course cyclist can and do cause accidents. A few years ago a friend of mine was riding down the road on his 6 month old GSXR1000, below the speed limit (20 in a 30) . Suddenly a suited cyclist (no helmet of course) rode off the adjacent pavement hit the bike at a 45 degree angle. Knocked my mate off and sent bike down the road. Police were not interested and as the cyclist had no insurance could not claim against him, even tried against his house insurance. Left him very out of pcoket!



Any driver who is reasonably observant will drive in a manner that reduces the likelihood of an accident down to near zero (excepting cyclists firing out of side roads without looking at 20mph which does occasionally happen). If he'd seen the cyclist on the pavement he should have been aware they sometimes do stupid things, especially if they're kids. Doesn't it make more sense just to drive safely to avoid others (no matter who they are) than rant about it? And seeing as it's illegal to ride on the pavement it's reasonable to assume they may get off teh pavement at some point soon.

Quite frankly this is a poor (and stereotypical) rant. From someone who regularly does both I can see blame comes from both sides and insuring/licensing cyclists isn't a sensible, achievable or administer-able option.

Concentrate on driving defensively and you'll be much better off, be it on a bike or in a car. And learn to share the roads, be it on a bike or in a car.

I'm a firm believer that anyone getting a car license should be forced to travel through city traffic on a bicycle for a period before they get their license - I've lost track of the number of "drivers" I've spoken to after they have spent some time commuting by bike who say something to the effect of "my god, I can see why cyclists are terrified on the roads".

There's a reason motorbikers refer to car drivers as "cagers" - it's because as soon as you get into your box there's a tendency to forget everyone else and be set on your mission to get somewhere and lose all sense of reason.

As a final note, why would you assume a cyclist isn't licensed? Most adult cyclists I know are drivers too with the full training.

[Edited on 15/8/13 by coyoteboy]






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MikeRJ

posted on 15/8/13 at 12:41 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
From someone who regularly does both I can see blame comes from both sides and insuring/licensing cyclists isn't a sensible, achievable or administer-able option.


I disagree here, I firmly believe that all primary road users (i.e. not pedestrians) should have a minimum level of insurance cover. Being able to cause significant damage or injury to someone or their property with absolutely no come back is inherently wrong.

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dave107

posted on 15/8/13 at 12:42 PM Reply With Quote
Agree with clanger and ride all three but all types of motorist wee others off because none of us do anything wrong that's why there are so many accidents and deaths, everyone needs to stay with in the laws and give a little and have more patience.

Had a cyclist stop me when I approached a round about on the way to work this morning, he was on the round about then went behind me and up onto a grass bank onto a cycle path that pissed me off.

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matt_gsxr

posted on 15/8/13 at 12:45 PM Reply With Quote
Pedestrians make my blood boil.
They cross the road and none of them have licenses or insurance.

And don't start me on pigeons and wasps. If we could start taxing wasps then that would sort the economy out.

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Daddylonglegs

posted on 15/8/13 at 12:57 PM Reply With Quote
Just as in every other type of transport, there are good and bad riders/drivers. I agree with the 'ride defensively' attitude but there are times when no amount of defensive riding/driving will stop some idiots causing grief.

I have riden motorcycles for almost 40 years, had 2 minor accidents (both my own stupidity and involving no-one else) but sold my last bike around 18 months ago as I was spending more time avoiding phone-toting fools or 'blind' drivers than actually enjoying my riding so she finally went and with it I would think my riding career

I've watched too many cycles cross the red lights, cut in front of people etc. etc. but I've also seen plenty driving with courtesy and care, just as I have car drivers and motorcyle riders.

Insurance would be a great idea for the reasons already mentioned, claiming against an 'obvious fault of the cyclist' accident, and I reckon most responsible riders would happily oblige.

One last input to the rant, what about all these disability electric carts? How many times have we seen them going down the dual-carriageway? Do they have tax, insurance, reg plates? Apart from the legal side of things, it's damn dangerous!!

Just my 2p worth





It looks like the Midget is winning at the moment......

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coyoteboy

posted on 15/8/13 at 01:01 PM Reply With Quote
quote:

I disagree here, I firmly believe that all primary road users (i.e. not pedestrians) should have a minimum level of insurance cover. Being able to cause significant damage or injury to someone or their property with absolutely no come back is inherently wrong.



Reasonable point, but you CAN claim back damages from a cyclist without insurance - it's a normal civil damage case, and in fact many cyclists (though they won't know it) are covered by house insurance policies (I was surprised to find I was).

The problem with introducing more insurances is it's yet another location to get ripped off, yet another location for from "cyclists" and what do you do with kids? The typical cyclist 3rd party cover is about £15 a year, which is pretty much nothing in the grand scheme, but if you only use a bike once a year you're not going to pay it and how would you police it? Would you expect the police to police it? And what happens if you don't have it - you'd have to go on some sort of register, that would require setting up and maintaining. Do you really want to incur such policing costs across the voter pool purely for some cyclists that don't have insurance and cause damage?

I'd suggest we struggle to police uninsured drivers currently, adding cyclists would become a farce.






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mcerd1

posted on 15/8/13 at 01:07 PM Reply With Quote
some kind of numberplate would be the best thing for bikes - that way they could actually send fines to folk for jumping the lights etc. (along with higher penalties for serious things like red lights - is it not only £30 at the moment if you get caught ? ) but I don't see any practical way to enforce it without massive costs.....


quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
And don't start me on pigeons and wasps. If we could start taxing wasps then that would sort the economy out.

lets just make that all insects, but we might have to give bee's a tax break for now as they are a bit hard up at the moment





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davidimurray

posted on 15/8/13 at 02:42 PM Reply With Quote
Well this prompted some discussion

As I said - I have nothing against the responsible law abiding cyclist - the point that most people seemd to have missed.

My rant was towards the irresponsible and dangerous cyclist that are out though - a number of whom it 'appears' are leading a crusade against other road users.

As a road user, no matter what vehicle, bicycle, invalid carriage, rikshaw etc you are using you have a RESPONSIBILITY to yourself and OTHER road users. There are plenty of examples where road users have tired to undertake/overtake a vehicle at a turning and been hit by a vehicle. In many cases the turning vehicle gets the blame but surely the other party should not put themselves in that position to start with. And you also need to think about the consequences for both parties - imagine being involved in a fataility even if you are totally blameless it is bound to have some mental affect on you.

Totally agree with the behaviour of some motorbikers. I've been a motorcyclist for over 17 years and there are plenty of idiots around who force cars out of the way, inappropriately filter and generally ride stupidly and put themselves in dangerous situations.


quote:

Any driver who is reasonably observant will drive in a manner that reduces the likelihood of an accident down to near zero (excepting cyclists firing out of side roads without looking at 20mph which does occasionally happen). If he'd seen the cyclist on the pavement he should have been aware they sometimes do stupid things, especially if they're kids. Doesn't it make more sense just to drive safely to avoid others (no matter who they are) than rant about it? And seeing as it's illegal to ride on the pavement it's reasonable to assume they may get off teh pavement at some point soon.



A very true point to a certain extent - but how realistic is this. Yes you can ride / drive to the road conditions, but what do you consider to be a hazard. Every single pedestrian on the pavement, every cyclist on the pavement(some cities seem to have more cyclist on the pavements than pedestrians), every driveway on a road, every turning? If you are driving along a 60mph open road and there is a turning into it, do you slwo down to a virtual stop and then speed back up again afterwards?


quote:

Try signalling when you're trying to dodge hospital sized potholes and I-phone punching idiots behind the wheel..........



That's fine, but if you then chose to suddenly shoot from one side of the road to the other in front of a car then you need to accept the consequences and the harm you may cause others.


quote:

As a final note, why would you assume a cyclist isn't licensed? Most adult cyclists I know are drivers too with the full training.



Who said I did - but they will be licensced for a car. You can't just jump on a motorbike without being trained on it even if you do have a car licence. The comment was about having relevant and appropriate training for cycling.





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britishtrident

posted on 15/8/13 at 03:26 PM Reply With Quote
The BBC are always heavily biased in favour of the cycling mafia
What gets me is (1) Cyclists who don't use perfectly adequate and well maintained cycle ways. (2) Cyclists who ignore red lights, then take great delight in holding up the traffic they have just jumped ahead of.

It is time somebody pointed out that cyclist on main commuter routes and busy country roads cause massive amounts of pollution and fuel wastage by forcing following traffic to drive inefficiently.





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TimEllershaw

posted on 15/8/13 at 04:12 PM Reply With Quote


I have a foot in both camps on this ( I drive a car and I ride/race a bike ). The same topic came up today on a cycling forum that I frequent and received a similar amount of sweeping generalisations, "they are ALL idiots...", "It makes my blood boil when..." etc. etc.

I'm sure we can all find some damning "evidence" that will prove our point, but, in reality, for every bad cyclist there is a bad driver.

Are we really all (both sides) so narrow minded that we really can't see the other point of view? Even just a little bit ??

[Edited on 15/8/2013 by TimEllershaw]






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ste

posted on 15/8/13 at 04:57 PM Reply With Quote
Don't get me started on horses on the roads
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Tazzzzman1

posted on 15/8/13 at 05:07 PM Reply With Quote
Yes I know what you mean
Had a run in with a cyclist 2 weekends ago. Went out for a Sunday run out across the Peaks. Parked up on side of the road near Chatsworth due to one of the other lads blowing a radiator hose. Car was well off the road. 4 others parked up behind me.
Then a rubber necker slowed to view the cars parked up and a cyclist going down hill like a bat out of hell skidded, just missed the rubber neckers car (how, i do not know?) and ended up hitting my parked car.
Cheeky gits tried to blame it on me for parking on the roadside. Then came out with a host of excuses why it was not his fault.....

Forunately the Kit behind me had his onboard video running. When I threatened him with criminal damage, he soon coughed up for a new front wing.....
Makes me bloody mad though............think they can get away with anything, including hitting a parked car!!! see the video below:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9-F82OeSrQ

[Edited on 15/8/13 by Tazzzzman1]

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coyoteboy

posted on 15/8/13 at 05:09 PM Reply With Quote
quote:

What gets me is (1) Cyclists who don't use perfectly adequate and well maintained cycle ways. (2) Cyclists who ignore red lights, then take great delight in holding up the traffic they have just jumped ahead of.



1) What you think is a perfectly adequate cycle way is often not. I commuted on a DC next to a cycle way for 8 years. Then I started riding on it, and rapidly moved to cycling on the DC because the thing LOOKED ok but every time the hedges were cut, or someone lobbed a bottle from a passing car it left an unavoidable mess. It also was intersected every few hundred yards by side roads which lead onto the DC and meant that you have to come to a complete halt at every intersection (over a 15 mile commute that REALLY adds up when you're pedal powered!), plus the side roads were decel lanes merging with side roads and were lethally fast for crossing with a bike.

2) I agree to some extent, I don't like RLJers either. However I can't remember a time in my life that a cyclist slowed me down for more than 20 seconds, no matter where I lived - they're slow, they're easy to pass safely unless you're in heavy traffic, when there's not much point doing so.


quote:

It is time somebody pointed out that cyclist on main commuter routes and busy country roads cause massive amounts of pollution and fuel wastage by forcing following traffic to drive inefficiently.



Really? Never experienced that in my life. Seen a few queues of 5-10 cars slowed for 30 seconds, but at the end of the day - who cares?

People need to relax and stop treating roads like a motorway, it's not just there so cars can get from A to B as fast as physically possible - it's there for all to share.

I think part of the problem is that both sides behave highly irrationally on the road. Some cyclists do some stupid things without thinking of the consequences, mostly because they're unaware of the effect they have on others rather than out of any plan to cause trouble. And drivers often do things that can have fatal consequences very easily, and wonder why cyclists get angry and punch out at cars. In the Alps I was nearly run off the road on my bike by a chap in a van, he cut me up so close on a hairpin where I was exposed to a large drop that I was able to knock on the side of his van to point out how close he was. He was not a happy bunny, but he should not have been that close and couldn't see that.

Then there's the stupid drivers who just don't like cyclists, even when they're acting perfectly within the law and common sense. I've had glass bottles thrown at me from the next lane, one of which dented a £1000 frame. I've had all manner of abuse yelled at me for no reason. I've had drivers purposefully try to push me onto the pavement WITH THEIR CAR. I've had my arse slapped by someone passing in a car at about 50 - sounds funny but imagine being punched at 40mph and see how funny it is.

The thing is, I've never seen a cyclist do anything like that unprovoked. I've seen some make stupid mistakes, I've seen some dangerous ones, but they're easily avoided.

The world is full of people with no common sense or tolerance. At the end of the day there's a lot fewer cyclists, in total, than there are bad drivers.

[Edited on 15/8/13 by coyoteboy]






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Irony

posted on 15/8/13 at 05:53 PM Reply With Quote
Cannot believe only one person has mentioned horses. Horses on the road get me so cross. People with zero control over powerful animals (1 horse power?) Just wander about willy nilly. I was nearly killed by a rogue horse once when it got spooked by a Jack Russell. I also cannot abide jack Brussels.
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David Jenkins

posted on 15/8/13 at 06:24 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Irony
Cannot believe only one person has mentioned horses. Horses on the road get me so cross. People with zero control over powerful animals (1 horse power?) Just wander about willy nilly. I was nearly killed by a rogue horse once when it got spooked by a Jack Russell. I also cannot abide jack Brussels.


Take a deep breath... breathe out... think nice thoughts... and relax!

It's right about horses though - in the past week there was a news report about a Porsche hitting a horse in Suffolk. I'm sure the average reader thought "reckless Porsche driver" where in fact the driver had turned round a corner in a country road and collided with a stray horse in the road. As you can imagine, the car owner was pee'd off about his expensive car being wrecked by a stray horse...






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jacko

posted on 15/8/13 at 06:45 PM Reply With Quote
And the riders never clean the horse sh@t up off the road

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jacko

posted on 15/8/13 at 06:50 PM Reply With Quote
I like cyclists to jump red lights at least it stops them parking in front of me at traffic lights
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Hector.Brocklebank

posted on 15/8/13 at 06:53 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy


quote:

It is time somebody pointed out that cyclist on main commuter routes and busy country roads cause massive amounts of pollution and fuel wastage by forcing following traffic to drive inefficiently.



Really? Never experienced that in my life. Seen a few queues of 5-10 cars slowed for 30 seconds, but at the end of the day - who cares?



[Edited on 15/8/13 by coyoteboy]


This is a major problem in my area, cyclists using the whole lane on narrow two lane roads and certain road users (I wont say woman to be politically correct but it usually is) end up being afraid to make a move and traffic end up following a cyclist for over a mile, I regularly see this and if they (If the car drivers were to have acted in this manner during their test they would have failed for undue hesitation)





Some people can never handle the truth and always try to shoot the messenger instead of taking an honest look in the mirror (its always easier to blame another than to face reality), but secretly they wish they could grow a pair and be the messenger !!!

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snakebelly

posted on 15/8/13 at 07:56 PM Reply With Quote
where I live its murder in the summer as its a popular cycling area, narrow country roads and groups of 5 or more who instead of travelling line abreast insist on taking up the whole lane and refuse to move over, even had one offer me out last month when I used the horn, funnily enough when I pulled over he wasn't so keen?
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Scuzzle

posted on 15/8/13 at 10:25 PM Reply With Quote
Must admit I think cyclists should pay some kind of insurance, not families out with their kids but the lycra clad professional cyclists that cause all the mayhem on the roads.
Most are decent enough but in recent years I've noticed a huge increase in moronic actions from cyclists.
Riding single file seems to be non existent nowadays, they all ride 2 and 3 abreast choking up the road. Also the way they seem to think no rules of the road apply to them, facing a red light for cars all of a sudden they are pedestrians etc.

Only yesterday I was stopped at temp traffic lights at the foot of this really steep hill, lights were red and there were 2x cars in front of me. Up come 2x lycra clad cyclists who just ignored the red light and breezed on through 2 abreast.
Lights changed and we crawled up this hill behind these cyclists who would not get out the way, the lights must have changed about 3 times before the cars could safely get past these clowns. The cars at the top of the hill wanting down had to back up.

A few months ago I was doing some shopping in town and was walking along the pavement when a cyclist decided to pull the 'I'm now a pedestrian' stunt he was hurtling towards me shouting 'go left' go left' I felt like booting him right off his bike.

Like I said most play the game but personally I think it's this emphasis on being green that has given cyclists an over inflated sense of importance. This law about the motorist taking on guilt in every accident with a cyclist unless he can prove otherwise is a bit harsh as well, that's why I have front and rear dash cams fitted. Take a tenner off them and make them have insurance.

[Edited on 15/8/13 by Scuzzle]

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Simon

posted on 15/8/13 at 10:37 PM Reply With Quote
Ok, cyclists, like horses and pedestrians have a right to use the highways, so licence not required.

I agree standard of some cyclists not very good, but all user groups have issues, it's just that you see more of the cyclist because they are slow.

Cycle lanes can be a waste of time. Have one in Tunbridge Wells on the pavement with give way at every driveway or entrance - quicker on the road

Cheers

Simon (car user, cyclist, ex horsey person and ex motorcyclist)

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