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Author: Subject: scratch build exoskeleton thread
drt

posted on 8/12/13 at 02:00 PM Reply With Quote
scratch build exoskeleton thread

Hi,

Yesterday I was over the moon I could finally verify an email adress with LCB,
been reading for years As from now I can join .

I'll keep it short,
The car is of exoskeleton design and exist complete in cad.
Everything has been calculated and recalculated.
The problem I have... is that since I began building the frame months ago
the car reached MK999 because I can't settle on an engine/drivetrain
And keep redesigning everything everytime.


Parts of the project will also double as my thesis project,
So a gut feeling isn't enough to argument a choice upon

Therefore I gathered and composed a list of 70 engine with specs
To choose through a set of demands.

I'm sure every builders goes through this, so I would like to hear about your experiences
please.

I would be happy to share the list
or the list of demands.

But this is a locost spirited build... so plentyfull and cheapish donors needed






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MikeR

posted on 8/12/13 at 02:16 PM Reply With Quote
what fits, is cheap, can get through iva and isn't a nightmare to wire up - engine choosen.
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drt

posted on 8/12/13 at 02:34 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
what fits, is cheap, can get through iva and isn't a nightmare to wire up - engine choosen.


:p
okay, thanks. I will make at bit more specific.

demands;
*less than 500gbp
*space ? transvers I4, V6
*best p2w
*reliable

I've thrown a BEC out of the equation
they are still in the list (pre 1995 engines for IVA reasons)
Oh, and I was under the impression that if gearb and engine was used from a certain model,
this was tested to that vehicle emission specs?


list;
Wankel mazda12a
Toyota 3s fe
Alfa v6
RX8 renisis
Toyota 3s fe SC
MG F 1,8K VVC
MG F 160 trophy
Honda VFR750 rc36 BIKE
Honda B16B
Honda K20A
Honda B20A
Honda B18
Opel C20NE
Opel C20XE red top
VW 1,8T 20v
Subaru impreza 2.0 turbo
Toyota 2ZZ-GE(vvtli)
Toyota ZZ
Toyota ZZ 2.0
Toyota celica vvti
Toyota 3sgte (turbo
Rover 620TI
Kawasaki twin 750SX power
Kawasaki tuned twin 750SX power
Honda H22 2,2Ivtec
Peugeot MI16 1,9
Peugeot MI16 2,0
Peugeot Gti-6
Peugeot 1,9 8v
Peugeot s16
Honda CBR900
Honda TWIN CBR900
Honda TWIN CBR900 Turbo IC
Renault N7Q-704 2.0
Renault L7X 3.0
Volvo B4204T5
Volvo 850glt
Volvo 850 2.3T T5
Volvo 850 2.0 20v
Suzuki GSXR 1100
Suzuki RF 900
Suzuki GSX750F
Suzuki GSF1200
Suzuki GSF600
Ford ZETEC 1,8
Ford ZETEC 2,0
Honda CBR1000F
Yamaha XJ1200 1993
MG F 1,8


After demands etc I have the category winners...

Overall
MG F 1,8K VVC
Honda CBR1000F
Ford ZETEC 2,0
Rover 620TI
Peugeot 1,9 8v
Peugeot Gti-6
Opel C20XE red top
Honda H22 2,2Ivtec
Toyota celica vvti
VW 1,8T 20v

price
Subaru impreza 2.0 turbo
Peugeot Gti-6
Yamaha XJ1200 1993
MG F 1,8K VVC
Peugeot 1,9 8v
Volvo 850 2.0 20v
Honda B18
Honda CBR1000f
Honda VFR750 rc36 BIKE
Peugeot s16

p2w
Subaru impreza 2.0 turbo
Honda H22 2,2Ivtec
Suzuki GSXR 1100
Toyota 2ZZ-GE(vvtli)
Volvo 850 2.3T T5
Ford ZETEC 2,0
Renault L7X 3.0
RX8 renisis
Rover 620TI
Toyota 3sgte (turbo

and my favourite
Bangs per Buck
Subaru impreza 2.0 turbo
Yamaha XJ1200 1993
Peugeot Gti-6
Honda CBR1000F
MG F 1,8K VVC
Volvo B4204T5
Rover 620TI
Honda H22 2,2Ivtec
Ford ZETEC 2,0
Honda B18






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ali f27

posted on 8/12/13 at 03:04 PM Reply With Quote
H I surprised no duratec mondaeos are common and no kv6
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MikeR

posted on 8/12/13 at 03:05 PM Reply With Quote
zetec and mg engines have been used in loads of kit cars there for problems already found and parts required made. do you have time and money to reinvent the wheel?
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Ivan

posted on 8/12/13 at 03:12 PM Reply With Quote
I would go for the Subaru option -

+'s
It's Subaru , low CoG, ample cheap power, fore and aft alignment, gearbox can be adapted to transaxle, reliable, relatively light I think.

-'s
Fuel consumption, width, gearbox length.

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chrism

posted on 8/12/13 at 03:31 PM Reply With Quote
MGF might be a good option for a donor as all the hubs are already setup for double wishbone use and setup for rear wheel drive, so no hub mods to make or adaptors required etc. Only issue is hubs have a slightly odd bolt pattern not one of the more common ones.

Plus also some people have swopped the Rover V6 engines into MGFs and they tend to be quite a good engine. (KV6 as mentioned above)

Subaru option is also interesting, but they do use the macpherson strut suspension so you would need to make some adaptors to change the top of the hub to accept a balljoint at the front and bush at the back, unfortuntaely the design means you cant use mushroom adaptors like the sierra hubs, but with the 4wd you could adapt the drive shafts to use the gearbox with the rear hubs for rwd and then cut off the CV joints on the front drive shafts.





----------------------------
A little hard work never killed anyone, but why take the risk!
-----------------------------

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drt

posted on 8/12/13 at 04:23 PM Reply With Quote
subaru and rover K

Hi guys,

thanks for the replys.
I came to the same conclusions.
the fixation is on the engine now, as hubs have been established.
I would also be running a quite wide track, so custom driveshafts I am stuck to anyway

And indeed I crossed out the Scooby because of the gearbox length.
I had some people telling me they -quite literally- hacked off the center diff and shortend it.
But have no data on how long it is then. (transaxle config)

The KV6 I like, the data I have suggest 170bhp and 155kg bare.
But they come with PG1 gearboxes, I heard they are prone to bearing failure
among the reason for doubting the 620TI despite the standard torsen diff

Duratecs are hard to come by cheaply (were I'm from)

[Edited on 8/12/13 by drt]

[Edited on 8/12/13 by drt]






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Volvorsport

posted on 8/12/13 at 04:27 PM Reply With Quote
if you were going to fit a 20v NA volvo , it should be the 2435cc version rated at 163 hp. not the 2 litre 140 hp.





www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus

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drt

posted on 8/12/13 at 05:01 PM Reply With Quote
updated the list...

with the Kv6 and duratec.

the formula states the top 3 as;
1.8K
zetec 2.0
kv6

(shame on me)

I do not know much about the KV6,
does anyone have dimensions (give or take)
Does it come with a lovely aftermarket like the zetec and 1.8K ?
and will the pg1 cope with the extra torque?






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big_wasa

posted on 8/12/13 at 05:54 PM Reply With Quote
The kv6 engine is a great engine up to 200bhp. You will get just shy of this with just breathing mods. Induction and exhaust where taken direct from a 2L. They sound great and pull like a train.

They do have a few faults but Hgf is not one of them. Cam belts are a dear job and the tools are not cheap to do it your self. The balls on the variable inlet manifold fail as do the viz motors. A new mani' is the best part of £500.

Clutch hydraulics are cheap and plastic but there are ways around this with Honda parts.

The v6 pg1 is the heavy duty box and will handle the torque just fine. It can be upgraded with steel caged bearings and a Torsen diff.

Don't bother to try and get much more than 200bhp unless you have deep pockets.




I love the zetec but its done to death.

The Gti6 is a great engine but it leans back and that wont help weight bias in a middy.

I love the Scooby lump but it will add length to the car.

I am going to look towards the Volvo if I can find a cheap low millage car

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drt

posted on 8/12/13 at 09:35 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
The kv6 engine is a great engine up to 200bhp. You will get just shy of this with just breathing mods. Induction and exhaust where taken direct from a 2L. They sound great and pull like a train.

They do have a few faults but Hgf is not one of them. Cam belts are a dear job and the tools are not cheap to do it your self. The balls on the variable inlet manifold fail as do the viz motors. A new mani' is the best part of £500.

Clutch hydraulics are cheap and plastic but there are ways around this with Honda parts.

The v6 pg1 is the heavy duty box and will handle the torque just fine. It can be upgraded with steel caged bearings and a Torsen diff.

Don't bother to try and get much more than 200bhp unless you have deep pockets.




I love the zetec but its done to death.

The Gti6 is a great engine but it leans back and that wont help weight bias in a middy.

I love the Scooby lump but it will add length to the car.

I am going to look towards the Volvo if I can find a cheap low millage car






Thanks!
Really nice, this is the sort of advice one can never have enough of






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rdodger

posted on 8/12/13 at 09:43 PM Reply With Quote
K series 1.8 VVC

Because.... Engine is very light, powerful and reliable. Yes reliable with correct installation, thermostat position, head gasket etc.

DVA power for more .... well POWER!

PG1 gearbox is also light, various Elise/Exige ratios available and final drives. Elise gearchange is going to be easy to fit. Uprated bearings are readily available and not costly.

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drt

posted on 8/12/13 at 09:44 PM Reply With Quote
btw,
a mate just offered his 'saab aero/viggen' opinion
Looks like a nice 150kg turbo lump...

...l'embarras du choix...






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drt

posted on 8/12/13 at 09:59 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
K series 1.8 VVC

Because.... Engine is very light, powerful and reliable. Yes reliable with correct installation, thermostat position, head gasket etc.

DVA power for more .... well POWER!

PG1 gearbox is also light, various Elise/Exige ratios available and final drives. Elise gearchange is going to be easy to fit. Uprated bearings are readily available and not costly.



thanks,
you're absolutely right!
K series is still in the running.

drove a mates K series R300 (road going) few years back and loved it.
He also never had the HG issues.
But as 'absolute power corrupts absolutely'
I find myself pondering if I wont go the extra proverbial mile






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MikeR

posted on 8/12/13 at 10:02 PM Reply With Quote
different thing to think of. most engines end up on the same side as the driver. engines as usually a lot heavier than the gearbox.

Some japanese engines are on the passenger side thereby potentially balancing things out a little.

(this is based on you driving on the left)

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rdodger

posted on 8/12/13 at 10:07 PM Reply With Quote
Having owned a transverse mid engine car (GTM Libra. VVC) I would say the lighter engine/gearbox the better.

Roll oversteer is not your friend!

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drt

posted on 10/12/13 at 09:52 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
different thing to think of. most engines end up on the same side as the driver. engines as usually a lot heavier than the gearbox.

Some japanese engines are on the passenger side thereby potentially balancing things out a little.

(this is based on you driving on the left)


Very good point,
I will be looking into it right away
thanks






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drt

posted on 10/12/13 at 09:57 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rdodger
Having owned a transverse mid engine car (GTM Libra. VVC) I would say the lighter engine/gearbox the better.

Roll oversteer is not your friend!


vehicle dynamics wise weight is absolutely the enemy,
although COG of an engine can dial it out.
Butt I would suspect the double link rear suspension for that.
in the libra it is offset a little but instant centers will be on the floor.
Anyway, to make a judgement like that would require a great deal of study
and a complete data set on the libra... so maybe better forget I ever said anything






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drt

posted on 10/12/13 at 10:04 AM Reply With Quote
picked up hubs

yesterday,

drove 250miles and picked up my hubs...
brakes...
and calipers...

and had to pass the 'r300 friend' to order some spherical bearings...
turns out he just bought an aston martin v8 vantage grrr

the noise it makes hard to understand this is ECOG certified






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drt

posted on 15/12/13 at 04:25 PM Reply With Quote
I recieved my 'tie-rod-ends' today
Had a lovely price for them.

Decided to put off the engine choice...
But I'm still very interested in what expierences you all had with different engines...
like general breakdowns or total blow-ups
In short what it is like to live with ... things numbers can't tell you.

Oh, and I have all the building/cad pics on photobucket... I'll post if anyone wants






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rdodger

posted on 15/12/13 at 04:31 PM Reply With Quote
Yes get some pictures posted!
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drt

posted on 17/12/13 at 05:48 PM Reply With Quote
pictures so far


The first building step






Getting tubes bent



laying it out

http://i819.photobucket.com/albums/zz120/motorsporteng/Home%20made%20Ariel%20atom/17_zps5985fea6.jpg
A rotisserie



1:1 scale plans plotted of the main spar tubes














Family happy with the space saving stance










going for donor parts (fist batch)



last tubes






it is very roomy!!






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rdodger

posted on 17/12/13 at 06:59 PM Reply With Quote
Brilliant!

As you say it's pretty roomy.

How much larger than an Atom is it? The sides certainly look to be higher?

What's the expected weight?

Do you have it drawn in CAD?

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drt

posted on 17/12/13 at 11:03 PM Reply With Quote
Wel it is about 10mm wider,
the side is about the same, but as it is now i sit lower
weight...
Started life as a BEC and was about 350-400kg.
now looking at car engis hope 490 as it looks now.
But I'll keep you posted.

The car is fully CADded up... everything from pipes to brakes from pedals to uprights.
most components were uptimiseded using FEM (FEA) (and a hefty safty margin )

Friday I am machining the 'weld on suspension brackets'.
I have to make them myself as I am using metric tie rod ends...
And the haynes/champion style brackets are imperial ofc so are he bushes.






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