My name is Matt and me and my friend Si have a small workshop where we build custom bikes and we both love old fords. I drive an 82 granada ghia x and
he has all sorts of old fords. Lots of bikes between us.
Anyway, new on here, and couldn't see a new members post.
Basically, we are trying to get a westfield which belongs to a friend of mine going, it had a mega tuned x flow 1700 in it which was completely
knackered, built for hill climbs and on max bore, so we have taken it out and sold it and bought a 96 mondeo donor car to get a silver top 1800 zetec
engine. We started to take the engine out today and found out a load of stuff we have been told from various sources is wrong, the zetec is not
standard ford bolt pattern, engine mounts etc wont fit, and according to burton site we might need to change bell housing, but we wont know for sure
till we get it out and try to mate it up.
Anyway, I was looking for bits on the net and found a link to this forum, so thought I would join it and see what was what.
Does anyone know much about ford engine management systems? how much is involved in using the bits of the loom on the zetec engine and just fitting it
all into the westfield? We were told the engine loom is stand alone on a zetec, but it seems to be very much integrated into the main car loom on the
mondeo.
We have a pair of webber dcoe40s which came off the crossflow, but would like to get the injection going for reliability, I know my friend basically
will want it for sunny afternoon drives, so dont want the faff of carbs needing balancing etc.
Has anyone done this conversion?
We have a fully equipped workshop and can weld to a good standard to engine mounts etc are not an issue, it's more guidance with the wiring side
of things we need. A good diagram would be handy.
silvertop fits straight onto a type 9 box,dont forget the spigot bearing !,some messing around with the starter is needed,engine mounts,not really a
problem,sump will need shortening.
most people use bike throttle bodies and megasquirt,that was the hardest bit for me,the rest is pretty simple :-)
In a locost the steering link fouls the inlet manifold. But Westfield did fit the zetec with the oem manifold and ecu . They made a low level plenum
and air box.
Photo Archive
Building: Xflow MK "book" chassis + mods. Built
posted on 25/5/15 at 08:24 PM
quote:Originally posted by theconrodkid
silvertop fits straight onto a type 9 box,dont forget the spigot bearing !,some messing around with the starter is needed,engine mounts,not really a
problem,sump will need shortening. most people use bike throttle bodies and megasquirt,that was the hardest bit for me,the rest is pretty simple
:-)
Spigot bearing - tick
Starter (from the Capri donor) - tick
Sump (Got a shortened one) - tick
Fuelling (got bike carbs) - tick
Quote "...the rest is pretty simple..." unquote!!
Really?? Sure don't feel like it, just now. The engine mounts will need additional base plates welded onto the chassis, right where the 2
chassis tubes converge. I reckon the chassis mounting points are a good 10 - 15 cm further forward than the Xflow base plates. Oh, and you will also
have to sort out where the alternator can be mounted in your installation. Another thought - will your Xflow prop fit the T9 gearbox? This has 23
splines on the 25mm dia outout shaft,
[Edited on 25/5/15 by Dick Axtell]
Work-in-Progress: Changed to Zetec + T9. Still trying!!
We are using the original box which I think is a rocket, although I can't remember as it's a while since we id'd it. Engine mounts
no problem, we can weld those up and have found some pics on burton of a kit one they do for various applications which would be pretty easy to copy.
Interested in the sump, what is required in the way of mods?
I had a look at the link posted for the ecu and that seems ok, I am quite happy following diagrams, and my wiring is pretty good in terms of
technique/neatness, it's more a lack of knowledge about modern systems as I have always worked on bikes and cars with carbs and am very
inexperienced with management systems.
I found the multi pin to the ecu behind the dash, and I found the big square connector by the airbox, so is it a case of mounting the ecu in the car,
then connecting wires from the westfield to the big square connector? I realise I am simplifying things, but I just mean in general terms.
We want to do it for the minimum outlay, so I suppose it depends how much of the original system can we use? we were hoping to fit a cone filter in
place of the airbox filter (due to space) and see if the rest of the mondeo system would fit.
The twin webers are looking tempting at the moment, all we would need is a manifold for about £150.
Whats the power difference between a twin carb engine and the original system?
I don't want to start out trying to wire the management system and just get lost so the project stalls.
Photo Archive
Building: Dax Rush - very, very slowly....
posted on 26/5/15 at 09:54 AM
You'll probably get slightly more power with the carbs than the stock ECU, at least a higher peak value anyway
How good the rest of the power band is depends on how well you can setup the carbs, EFI does have quite a few advantages in this respect....
Or another option for you is bike carbs - I'm guessing these would be familiar territory for you
They are a favourite on here, they take a little more fiddling to setup the first time but the CV design makes the same power as Webbers and stays in
tune better and uses a bit less fuel too
The biggest advantage is the cost as you can get a set of 4 for ~£50 (ZX6R or R6 are about right for an 1800)
Its possible to make your own manifold too (fastdan on here sells flanges, diy kits or premade ones)
But if you use any carbs you'll need an ECU of some kind to run the sparks as there is no way to run a dizzy.
You can use various stripped-down ford ECU's or one of the aftermarket standalone ones like megajolt or nodiz, etc.....
If you want to keep costs down then a bit of reading around big_wasa's threads will get you there.
I've bought someone else's attempt at installing the standard ecu and was worried about maintaining that but actually the wiring
isn't too bad and the pin out lists make it fairly straight forward to trace and troubleshoot is you have problems.
quote:Originally posted by wylliezx9r
Where about in South Wales are you ? I may be able to help you out if you get stuck, I managed to wire my S2000 engine to Omex management somehow
In Newport, and the offer of help is greatly appreciated!
Got the donor engine out today, and stripped down the ancillaries. So we're down to sorting various issues before we look at fitting it into the
westfield.
It's an auto, so no flywheel, we were hoping the crossflow flywheel would fit but no such luck, the bolt pattern is different diameter.
Can't find a cheap original mondeo one but lots of focus ones, does anyone know for definite if the focus zetec flywheel will be the same bolt
pattern?
I can see for myself now the requirement for lowering the sump, the bellhousing has scraped the floor on the westfield. We can't alloy weld. I
have seen mention of the fact that the early zetec is a development of the pinto and the sump will fit, does anyone know if this is right? I can get
my hands on a pinot sump easily enough and we can mod it ourselves as it's steel? I can check tomorrow, but wondering if there are any well
known options that don't require ally welding.
Burton want over £100 for a belt and a bracket to mount the alternator. What's the simplest solution? Does the tensioner wheel have to go?
obviously want the least rubbish on the engine possible, but was thinking of replacing the pas pump with an idler wheel, or is that stupid? If we make
an alternator tensioning bracket, is there a known belt that will fit without going to Burton?
Wiring. I am gradually getting my head round what we need to do as it's a much more involved job than I envisaged. Is there a list of sensors
that NEED to be wired up to the ecu to make it work, and is there a list of which wires can be either removed or have a fake signal sent to them. We
need to know if the auto ecu can be used, or is it set up to talk to the auto box only? do we have to use the road speed sensor etc as it's not
on the westfield gearbox. I removed the ecu today, and the whole engine loom is separate so do we leave the loom to ecu all intact, and just deal with
the square block connector into the car? or do we need to remove wires at the ecu end.
er... do you see now how much I have bitten off more than I can chew?
We're going to talk to my friend who owns the car about his budget for parts we may end up with an aftermarket ecu, but he just wants it running
as a standard engine, so it seems a shame to spend a fortune on a mappable ecu we don't need if we can make the ford system work.
The 1.8 from the sierra you can use the metal sump from that you will also need a starter from the 1.8 sierra or the DOHC sierra if you can get one of
these the standard one can be used but you need to make a 14 mm spacer. As for the flywheel use the 1.8 zetec flywheel its lighter many have used the
pinto clutch and redrilled the flywheel to accept it.
Remember if you are fitting a silvertop zetec you also need the 1,6 water pump it turns the opposite way to the 2litre ones as fitted to mondeos due
to the serpentine belt arrangement.
Life is like a bowl of fruit, funny how all the weird looking ones are left alone
Thank you, looks like the sierra is a good source of parts.
Does anyone know if zetec petrol flywheels are interchangeable from fiesta/focus? Only because they are cheap as chips and mondeo ones are rare. I
realise some are dual mass but plenty of standard ones around.
As soon as I looked on ebay to remind myself I saw the pinto is completely different sump shape. Amazing how much rubbish is on the internet.
Photo Archive
Building: Dax Rush - very, very slowly....
posted on 27/5/15 at 12:51 AM
fiesta's have zetec SE engines (i.e the 1.25/1.4 / 1.6 sigma engine - also in some focus's)
mondeo's have the zetec E (i.e. the 1.8 / 2.0 zeta engine also in focus's)
this is either in silvertop or blacktop form depending on the age
the only thing the two types have in common is the name....
quote:Originally posted by mattycoops43
I have seen mention of the fact that the early zetec is a development of the pinto and the sump will fit, does anyone know if this is
right?
That's not true at all I'm afraid - the pinto is a very different engine
Its actually a very loose development of the 1.8 CVH engine from the sierra - so you can use the CVH sump and starter etc...
Thanks for the info guys. This forum has been extremely helpful.
Slight change of direction, we looked at it all this morning, and I think we are going to mount the twin webers we have, the reason being we have to
weigh up the amount of time it takes us to do all the wiring up versus spending the owners money on the parts. We have auto ecu and by the time we
start looking at different ford ecu's it just becomes hassle. Plus we are not even sure if we get the whole original system running how much of
the intake side will even fit under the bonnet of a slimline westfield. Westfield fit a low level plenum when they use zetecs, but anything from
westfield is crazy money.
Have been told to look at MBE and DTA ecu's by someone who does grass track racing, as they are mostly running modern engines, but not allowed
to use injection. So we want a spark only ecu to run with the carbs.
Has anyone had any experience of either, or a recommendation for a different make? I looked at megasquirt, but they seem to have gone totally in to
full management systems, and they even say on their own website, MS1 is now obsolete.
Another issue, we spoke to Scholar engines today to order a sump and they are no longer doing them as they can't get the donor ones to convert.
Apparently they need to be a 2.0 sump to do the conversion so they can't mod our 1.8. Not sure why but bit of a shame as it was a cheap option
at £110 exchange.
Anyone know of a company supplying or modding sumps? (without spending silly money on a raceline
Photo Archive
Building: Dax Rush - very, very slowly....
posted on 27/5/15 at 03:48 PM
Nodiz and megajolt are the main ignition only ECU's at the moment
Megajolt is a bit old fashioned and needs ignition controller donor bits (ford EDIS)
But its a tried and tested system, you might even be able to find a secondhand one
Its possible to get all you'll need for MJ for less than £150
A TPS version from the states is about £125, then all you need is the EDIS4 and its wires/plugs from the scrapyard along with whatever TPS sensor you
like to fit onto the Webbers.
The crank sensor, trigger wheel and coilpack you need are all just the stock zetec ones you've got already.
Nodiz is still quite new, but is getting a good write up from the folk on here that are running it
He's currently got a group buy thread on here too
Or you could just use the ford ESC module, its a stand alone controller that not tunable, used for a while in the 90's on fiestas and escorts
with certain engines.
It uses a vac line for load sensing though which can take a bit of fiddling when you have multiple carbs
Emerald, omex, etc do stripped-down ignition only versions too, but they are a fair bit more £ than the above options...
Some folk use Webber alpha, but it gets locked so that you can't adjust it and its not cheap either....
You need another part as well with the engine being an auto.
The zetec has no distributor as its electronic. For any ecu to work it needs a crank position signal and fords being 36-1. This is built into the back
of the flywheel or in your case the flex plate.
The sensor for the two is the same but the housing the sensor sits in is not. You WILL need the manual cps housing or a front mount trigger wheel and
that is much more work.
The fly wheel wants to be from a 1.8 escort /focus / mondeo/ orion and so on.
Water pump and pulley need to come from a zetec escort. You then just have three pulleys and tension the belt by swinging the alternator. The water
pump on the Mondeo lump runs backwards.
Wyn's picture, mine have vanished. (also shows trigger wheel for flywheels with out )
Sump, you could try Dunnell engines. Tiger did a cast one as do Westfield. All come up second hand from time to time.
Webers are not known for running well on a 16v engine unless set up to do so with extra progression drillings. That's not to say they wont. I
cant tune them but I can build fuel injection systems.
You are correct with your ecu being from an auto it is of no use due to gearbox inputs but ecu's are cheap and the loom could be reworked.
Westfield no longer sell the plenum. But I do have one in the garage with there air box
I was getting totally overwhelmed by this, all getting a bit scary, but I think we are getting to grips with it. I have read up on the webers, they
work well with the 5th progression hole, and that can be drilled, (possibly even bu us as we are fairly well set up).
No diz looks excellent and a great price, we had pretty much decided on omex and thats 400 so massive saving. I like nodiz as it's all included.
Will look into it more.
Well, it's all coming along nicely, gradually getting the bits together, and almost ready to go in the car.
I have a question for you though. We got a sierra 1.8 flywheel to use as our donor was auto. Got the cps housing etc as previously mentioned. However,
sierras don't have a CPS!
Is it possible to weld the tag onto the flywheel? Are there specs anywhere for exactly where it goes?
Or does a manual mondeo flywheel do the job exactly?
Oh yes, the cvh flywheel has 3 holes drill in the back of it in one place, but we are assuming they are balancing wheels? Will they be cps trigger
points? I know an external trigger wheel uses a flat to send signal.
Bit frustrated with myself, bit of a boob. The question is what's the easiest way round it now. I have a sierra clutch cover and a 20 spline
clutch plate on order, all 215mm. If I get an early mondeo flywheel can I combine it? I've heard talk of a mondeo 220mm clutch.
Trying to avoid using a trigger wheel if possible.
You want either the flywheel and cover plate from a 1.8 zetec 220mm not 240mm.
So that's a mondeo, escort, fiesta, Orion and others.
Or
The flywheel from a 1.6 cvh efi. Rare as only made late 1990 and 1991.
Sierra cvh 1.6 efi is an easy fit being rwd to start with.
Escort cvh 1.6 efi is lighter but thinner so will need a non standard thrust bearing.
Both the above need the holes opening up to fit the zetec but it's just a case of running a drill bit through the holes already there.
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