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Author: Subject: Caterham vs everything
pekwah1

posted on 26/11/15 at 12:19 AM Reply With Quote
Caterham vs everything

Hi guys,

Had a visit to the cater ham factory today which happens to be just round the corner and got my thinking...
Caterhams are obviously a fair bit more expensive than the ones we're used to on here (locost, MK, Raw, GBS ETC), but are they essentially what we aspire to owning?

So here's the Scenario:

Assume that money is irrelevant, for the argument we will say that whichever kit is your preference, they cost exactly the same. Let's also assume that the engine and general car spec is also equal across all with the on,y real difference being the manufacturer chassis and standard kit. Also assume that you would be buying either a chassis kit or factory built car depending on your preference.

So with all this in mind, and all different cars costing exactly the same money, which one would you go for?

Simple as that, sure they'll be a lot of bias on here as most own a kit, but just interested to see people's opinions!

Regards
Andy

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coozer

posted on 26/11/15 at 12:25 AM Reply With Quote
I've built 2 kits so far and now I want to built a car from scratch for everything I wanted on the other two and I've decided the Midlana has evything I want..

Caterhams are too expensive for poor power engines IMO.





1972 V8 Jago

1980 Z750

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snapper

posted on 26/11/15 at 06:24 AM Reply With Quote
You scenario reduces the argument to essentially a badge preference exercise





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Ivan

posted on 26/11/15 at 06:51 AM Reply With Quote
All things being equal I would choose a Caterham purely because of the research they have put into the car.
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britishtrident

posted on 26/11/15 at 07:00 AM Reply With Quote
Birkin top dog for quality.





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pekwah1

posted on 26/11/15 at 07:49 AM Reply With Quote
Yep essentially this is a badge choosing exercise but with that will be some difference in chassis, setups etc and arguably quality of product and supplier.
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Sam_68

posted on 26/11/15 at 09:21 AM Reply With Quote
It partly comes down to reputation, simply because we don't really have the information to make reasoned judgements: it's nigh on impossible to get figures for the weight or stiffness of individual chassis, and even if you could get info on the suspension set-up, it would be very difficult to do an analysis that gave a clear cut answer as to which is best.

The Caterham CSR chassis certainly looks competent in design terms, and has had a lot of money spent on getting it right. I'm actually not a fan of the 'normal' Caterham chassis, as I think it's become too compromised by its origins, but it's clearly very well developed.

Several other chassis (MK Indy RR and MNR Vortx stand out, for me) at least make an obvious effort to move the game on, but without the figures it's difficult to say how successful they are.

... but I'm a bit of a Sylva fan, because:
a) They are proven to work.
b) The overall weights of cars suggest that it's amongst the lightest.
c) The Phoenix and J15 go some way to overcoming the greatest shortcoming of 'Seven' types - aerodynamic drag.
d) They have always been close to the original ethos of a low-budget car for enthusiasts, equally at home on road or track.

I've been in the position of being able to afford pretty much whatever 'Seven' I wanted (Levantes and Donkervoorts excepted!) and have owned both Caterhams and the 'ultimate' Westfield, but a Sylva Phoenix was the car I stuck with the longest.

A Westfield FW400 with a decent build quality and detailing (the originals were pretty shoddy, TBH) and a sequential Hewland JFR would be the ultimate, though, if money were genuinely no object.

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pekwah1

posted on 26/11/15 at 09:27 AM Reply With Quote
Yes i guess reputation comes into it a lot, as i agree there is little in terms of figures to demonstrate real differences between each chassis.

I suppose what i'm trying to do is gauge whether Caterham, established as the Doc martin of the kit car world, is indeed the original and the best meaning that it is essentially what we would all choose if boundaries were removed.

Maybe the more poignant question would be (assuming you're all poor like me), that if you had the money for any kit car, and it was definitely going to be spent on a kit car, would you be likely to choose a caterham above the rest?

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Sam_68

posted on 26/11/15 at 09:34 AM Reply With Quote
No, would be the answer from me. I've had one, and it wasn't particularly outstanding. Been there, done that, nice enough car, but wouldn't buy another.

Plus, my focus lies more toward the technical side of things and there are more interesting (and elegantly simple, in the Sylva's case) options out there.

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theduck

posted on 26/11/15 at 09:46 AM Reply With Quote
Money no object build for me wouldnt be a caterham. Most likely i'd go with MNR but it would all come down to whatever it was I fancy building at the time and identifying a manufacturer I liked their product and who was on board with the project.
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scootz

posted on 26/11/15 at 10:28 AM Reply With Quote
Owned a few kits, and taking everything into account, the Caterham is still the top 7 dog for me.

It just feels and looks 'right'.

Sure, they are expensive, but buy wisely and you will see your money back when you're done with it. Better enjoying your savings than watching them sit in the bank not making any interest!





It's Evolution Baby!

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Neville Jones

posted on 26/11/15 at 10:52 AM Reply With Quote
The Caterham has had more years of development than any, and has 'The Badge', so has good resale value. Next would be Westfield.

We've had examples of both here, to rectify factory build problems, so as far as build quality goes, the above two are no better than any other. There are some atrocious kits from other mfrs on the market though.

I spent a day with Jeremy and family when I picked up a couple of kits for shipping overseas, and talked through a lot of his work. There's room for improvement, as even he admitted. Too many tiny tubes, and not enough bigger. Being a smart man, he's now retired from the kit business! He always produced a pretty car though.

Cheers,
Nev.

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benchmark51

posted on 26/11/15 at 11:07 AM Reply With Quote
Do you want to build your own 7 or do you want to assemble a factory built one is the first thing to decide really.
One involves a lot more work than the other, but isn't that a big part of why we do it? With enough cash you can buy someone elses work and be driving a 7, but you miss out on something the self builder has.

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mcerd1

posted on 26/11/15 at 11:12 AM Reply With Quote
If the choice was narrowed down like that so that it was just down to chassis, looks and a badge - I still wouldn't pick the Caterham

Based on the few caterhams I've had the chance to look over in detail there are some aspects of there engineering that's just unnecessarily crude (especially for the price) although I do accept that they work.
I do like a lot of the nice bespoke components they use though


also a lot of the other cheaper kits on the market these days look pretty good too (never mind what some people with more talent than me can build from scratch)



[Edited on 26/11/2015 by mcerd1]





-

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pekwah1

posted on 26/11/15 at 11:28 AM Reply With Quote
Benchmark - yes you're right on that point, a lot of people on here will be more about the build, certainly Caterhams of this era take away a part of that by supplying a "pre-fab" chassis, but at the same time make it attainable for people who like the idea of building a kit but simply don't have the skills/equipment, but is certainly a consideration.
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ravingfool

posted on 26/11/15 at 12:17 PM Reply With Quote
All things equal I'd go for one of the various Sylva designs.

I just really like the Jeremy Philips designs from an aesthetic perspective plus they seem to be reasonable chassis capable of good performance on the track and racing. They've got great classic lines or in the case of the striker it's just a bit different and interesting.

If money were no object I'd probably have a couple of different ones, for road and race.

Some friends have caterhams and whilst they look very nice from the outside (or the cockpit), they're really not the height of engineering. Maybe this is different if you've got the current top of the line caterham but I have no experience of those.

Westfields I just don't like the look of as I find their proportions wrong.

If you're going to build from scratch on the other hand then the haynes bodywork can look really smart.

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Barkalarr
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Building: Caterham R300, Caterham Roadsport,Indy R1,Indy Zet

posted on 26/11/15 at 01:22 PM Reply With Quote
I bought an R300 - I chose this because IMO the R400 / R500 are too highly strung for me and do need lots of TLC. The resale value of these as scootz says is a no-brainer. Mine has also been setup really well (I was very lucky to inherit it like this) and it really puts a massive grin on my face when going round the track. I would like a bit more straight line speed - currently 160bhp VVC and 120mph with an aeroscreen down the back straight at Snetterton.

Having had several MK Indy's before, the thing that I noticed about when I got my first Caterham was the support you got from the club. As an example, I drove into Stoneleigh and there was a huge area for Caterhams - someone was waving me in and directing me to park with the other members of the club. The club support van was there with tea and coffee and a seated area where you could sit and talk petrol with other club members.
There are also local meetings every month organised by an Area Rep, track days, race meetings, drives out and discounts on insurance - all organised by dedicated people at the club.

It's not just the badge you are buying into with a Caterham - you are also buying into being part of a very active club if you want it. It's unlike this forum because there are people who take ownership and are responsible for organising these events - they don't just happen by chance.

Already a Caterham owner, I'm somewhat biased in my response to your original question, however do you want just the car or the car and the lifestyle that goes with it?

I'm aware that the lotus7.club is an independant club to Caterham Cars, however, are there other manufacturers who offer this much support to their product ?

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theprisioner

posted on 26/11/15 at 04:41 PM Reply With Quote
I like my J15 but it did not work out of the box even tho I built it myself. It is a much better car now than just after the IVA. However if you want a car that is proper sorted out of the box a Caterham is the one. No point now tho!





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SJ

posted on 26/11/15 at 05:48 PM Reply With Quote
The main problem with Caterhams is they are tiny. I'm not at all comfortable driving one so on that basis I wouldn't buy one.
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Sam_68

posted on 26/11/15 at 06:36 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
The main problem with Caterhams is they are tiny. I'm not at all comfortable driving one so on that basis I wouldn't buy one.


They do a supersize version, these days:



Sylva and narrow-bodied Westfields are similarly criticised, but I'm 6'0" and a fat b*****d, not to put too fine a point on it, yet I fit them all fine. I guess ergonomics and comfort zones are very personal.

[Edited on 26/11/15 by Sam_68]

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Irony

posted on 26/11/15 at 06:46 PM Reply With Quote
IVA inspector told me the build quality on caterhams in his opinion is no better than say MNR. He also went onto say that kit car companies who activity have a racing team let things like quality and customer service slide in favour of their racing
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motorcycle_mayhem

posted on 26/11/15 at 06:48 PM Reply With Quote
IF everything was affordable (for financial failures such as myself) and all equal, then it'd have to be a Radical, road registered, insured and all expenses paid for.

You'd also have to ensure that I had access to a race circuit, and/or when the car was on the road that the enforcement agencies were on strike. Enforcement cameras removed, and a Teflon licence available.

The Radical, a proper, well engineered, light car. Available in kit form. Far better, in my mind, than the aerodynamic brick of a 7.

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ianhurley20

posted on 26/11/15 at 10:21 PM Reply With Quote
I'm on my fourth kit car build. the first was a Lotus 6, ford e93a based car back in the 1960's, then an Opus HRF followed by a Ginetta G15 in about 1970. The Ginetta went together in a weekend and gave me a working everyday car with no real issues at all. Now, two or three years later, cough, I am building a Haynes Roadster. Not really my first choice as its really a load of vague ideas for you to sort out to build a car yourself. I must admit I am getting a bit fed up with having to design everything myself and put it together to find I could/should have done it another way and on several occasions doing it again.
Why build the Haynes? Cost. Lots of learning and satisfaction from the build but what would I really want??
A complete kit, probably a Westfield where everything is supplied and you just have to bolt it together. No getting it wrong again and probably an easier run through IVA and DVLA registration process. I'll probably change my mind after registration is over and its on the road but at the moment, 18 months into my build I would love to have an easy to build kit so its a WESTFIELD






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