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Author: Subject: Titan Roller Barrel TB Idle
ChrisJ15

posted on 22/4/17 at 11:48 AM Reply With Quote
Titan Roller Barrel TB Idle

Firstly, apologies, I know this has been covered a few times before but I have some questions...

I have a 2.0 Duratec with Titan Roller Barrel TBs. They came new from Northampton Motorsport along with an Omex 600 which they kindly put a map on from a similar setup.

Quick question is what is the best (lowest) idle I should expect with this setup? The very best I can get when hot is around 1000-1100 but quite erratic.

The history...

It started first time and has always run super sweet when its warming up and even runs nicely when it moves off the fast idle which runs to 60DegC. However when it warms up above 85-90 it all goes wrong. The idle is all over the place.

Ive checked the balance with a synchronometer (around 4ish Kg/Hr), ive done the static setup as per Caterham instructions (6mm open on front of barrel) and followed the Omex setup for scatter idle - take off idle, set manually to 150rpm above target then switch idel back on.

As it came the idle was anywhere from 1000 to 1200+ and occasionally would 'run away' to over 1600.

The Idle Scatter Spark Table had no correction for +rpm so i copied the-rpm figures but negated them and they run upto -5.89. This did seem to help and by setting the target rpm way down to 800 I can get it to idle at 1000-1100.

I do fully intend to take it to Northampton Motorsport to get it properly setup but 1) Wanted to sort anything first if there's a problem elsewhere and 2) Wanted to get it MOTed locally to see if I get lucky with emmission first, that way I can IVA and then drive to NMS.

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mackei23b

posted on 22/4/17 at 04:33 PM Reply With Quote
Hi There

Have a look at the sensors and the all variables, when it's warm what is the air temp sensor reading. The air temp will provide fuel correction and could cause the issues you are describing...also check the TPS is reading correctly....

That is where I would start.

Cheers

Ian

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ChrisJ15

posted on 22/4/17 at 04:44 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks Ian TPS is all OK but havent air temp beyond start up.
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mackei23b

posted on 22/4/17 at 05:48 PM Reply With Quote
I meant to also ask what the AFR is doing as this is another clue.

Cheers

Ian

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ChrisJ15

posted on 23/4/17 at 04:23 PM Reply With Quote
Is that in the fuel map?
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rusty nuts

posted on 23/4/17 at 05:34 PM Reply With Quote
Check for air leaks .
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ChrisJ15

posted on 7/5/17 at 01:35 PM Reply With Quote
Pretty sure its not an air leak, at least between the TBs and the head. I put a piece of wood across the TBs and it immediatley stopped the engine.
All very frustrating as its the very last thing I need to do before IVA.
One thing I did notice a couple of times was the fuel tank made that noise you hear when theres pressure or a vacuum in a tank. I double checked the breather valve to make sure its round the right way.
Also ran with the cap off and it still wasnt idling well so not sure its a factor.

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r1_pete

posted on 7/5/17 at 03:46 PM Reply With Quote
Flak Monkey had the same issue a few years ago, I'm sure he gave up and went back to conventional bodies:

https://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=131856&page=1

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ChrisJ15

posted on 7/5/17 at 04:33 PM Reply With Quote
Unfortunatley, because the Duratec was mounted slightly canted over there's no room for other TBs so im stuck with the Titan ones.
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peter030371

posted on 8/5/17 at 10:17 AM Reply With Quote
I have the same TB but only managed my first start this weekend so not tried getting up to hot idle yet!

I have stood next to a many Caterham Duratecs using these TB and they idle fine so it Has to be possible. I also have a friend that had some on a Duratec powered Elise and he eventually got them to work with an Emerald ECU so that would also indicate its possible.

Can you tell me when you set it up what are your Raw maximum and minimum figures for the TPS in the ECU?

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rusty nuts

posted on 8/5/17 at 11:41 AM Reply With Quote
Check for air leaks using WD40 then check the balance of the TBs and also for slack in the throttle cable/linkage Over advanced ignition timing at idle will cause a fast idle speed
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ChrisJ15

posted on 9/5/17 at 03:55 PM Reply With Quote
Raw Max and Min on the TPS are 20 and 223.

Did just notice that the throttle setting doesnt always return to 0 and sometimes is around 0.12%. I wonder if thats a factor?

Id did try squirting wd40 around the TB barrells but didnt notice any changes.

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peter030371

posted on 9/5/17 at 06:27 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJ15
Raw Max and Min on the TPS are 20 and 223.


What TPS have you got? My ford one has a very short range, min 20 to max 157 which must limit the mapping options a little!

Not sure it should ever return to 0% but I am no expert just from what I have read.

Really it needs a rolling road session to sort it out, not sure how far NMS are from you but I would not want to drive it to them first time. Trailer it to them until you know the map is safe. They can also make sure its ready for the IVA at the same time

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ChrisJ15

posted on 9/5/17 at 07:11 PM Reply With Quote
Cant remember TPS make, came from Northampton Motorport with Titan TBs.

Plan is to trailer it to NMS now.

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peter030371

posted on 10/5/17 at 07:34 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJ15
Cant remember TPS make, came from Northampton Motorport with Titan TBs.

Plan is to trailer it to NMS now.


Searched on here and you have previously said its a 'RP5110-100 from Active Sensors' so I will try and get one of them to increase my TPS range

When you get NMS to set it up I would love to hear how you get on and what it ends up like?

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peter030371

posted on 10/5/17 at 09:04 AM Reply With Quote
Gulp, just been quoted £157 (inc VAT and delivery) for 1 TPS the same as yours!

Need to get an answer from Omex if having a narrow TPS range is going to really make any difference before I swap this over

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ChrisJ15

posted on 10/5/17 at 08:02 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by peter030371
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJ15
Cant remember TPS make, came from Northampton Motorport with Titan TBs.

Plan is to trailer it to NMS now.


Searched on here and you have previously said its a 'RP5110-100 from Active Sensors' so I will try and get one of them to increase my TPS range

When you get NMS to set it up I would love to hear how you get on and what it ends up like?


Thats a combination of a 6 year build and a failing memory!

I'll certainly put an update on here as to how it goes at NMS.

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ChrisJ15

posted on 4/7/17 at 08:31 AM Reply With Quote
Just thought I'd give an update for this thread in case others have same issues.

Went to Northampton Motorsport yesterday for rolling road session to setup ECU and check emissions and all is sorted and OK. Car idles steadily at 1,000rpm and emissions fine.

Havent done this before so I had no idea what to expect. All in all a very pleasurable experience. I would thoroughly recommend NMS. They are all very helpful and knowledgeable and charge a fair price too.

Very happy with outcome too as im getting 196 bhp from my Duratec with a cat so couldn't be better really!

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peter030371

posted on 4/7/17 at 08:46 AM Reply With Quote
My similar spec build (no cat though) is booked in for a mapping session at ATSpeed next week, be interesting to see what they come up with.

They didn't like the fact I have roller barrel throttle bodies and did say there previous experience (from one car) is that they set the idle and then a few days later it is out again. They don't know why though. Mine currently idles at circa 1000 rpm and it seems fine to me so we will see after its fully setup

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jeffw

posted on 4/7/17 at 10:24 AM Reply With Quote
Remember to give as much banter as you get when you visit the boys at Atspeed






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peter030371

posted on 4/7/17 at 11:32 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Remember to give as much banter as you get when you visit the boys at Atspeed


Will it be a good or bad thing to mention your name Jeff

It will be my first time towing a car on my trailer....better hope my service/ refurb of it is finished by then!

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jeffw

posted on 4/7/17 at 01:48 PM Reply With Quote
What can go wrong, you might want to leave mentioning my name to Colin till you arrive lol...






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pjay

posted on 13/10/17 at 06:49 PM Reply With Quote
Hi ChrisJ15/peter030371,

I'm trying to get a decent idle with these TBs on standard 2.0L Duratec and wondered whether you know what Idle Timing Advance was used by Northamption Motorsport and ATSpeed?

This is on my assumption that the key is Timing Advance (or in reality Timing Retard) - any info would be much appreciated.

Cheers
Pete

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peter030371

posted on 13/10/17 at 07:26 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by pjay
Hi ChrisJ15/peter030371,

I'm trying to get a decent idle with these TBs on standard 2.0L Duratec and wondered whether you know what Idle Timing Advance was used by Northamption Motorsport and ATSpeed?

This is on my assumption that the key is Timing Advance (or in reality Timing Retard) - any info would be much appreciated.

Cheers
Pete


I will dig the map out at the weekend and have a look.

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pjay

posted on 14/10/17 at 12:23 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks, that would be great. Are you running Alpha-N or Speed Density based map?
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