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Author: Subject: Exploding Fridges - Isobutane -- Grenfell
britishtrident

posted on 28/6/17 at 11:00 AM Reply With Quote
Exploding Fridges - Isobutane -- Grenfell

A lot in the press about the horror of the Grenfell fire disaster and how the cladding turned a small domestic fire into a national disaster but there is a lack of coverage in the press about how fire started a firdge explosion. I had never heard of a domestic fridge exploding but it turns out modern fridges can explode, the reason is modern eco-friendly fridges use Isobutane as the refridgerant. The refridgerant can leak as a gas and accumulate in the confined space inside the fridge, open the fridge door the light switch is activated causing spark BOOM!





[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]

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motorcycle_mayhem

posted on 28/6/17 at 11:35 AM Reply With Quote
Welcome to the world we have created.

Yes, removal of CFC's and other (variously halogenated variants) has become the focus of environmental zealots. Problem is, they're extremely good at what they do. Damn good refrigerants, extinguishing mediums and useful for blowing foams (yes, another can of isocyanate worms). Thing is, the environmental zealots are always joyous that things have been removed/banned but rarely seem to consider the 'cons' of replacement.

But yes, explosive/flammable refrigerants pumped by a 240V compressor (made by the lowest bidder) cooling a box 24/7 that's insulated with polyisocyanurates.

Plenty of examples of this, lead in petrol, electric cars, biomass etc., etc.

Whether it's all done for the sake of job creation, money making (the usual) or out of a misguided brainwashing by the misinformed liberatarians, or some other aim, from a purely scientific viewpoint (yes, I am one) it's often nonsensical.

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chillis

posted on 28/6/17 at 11:59 AM Reply With Quote
Given that Which have been chasing Hotpoint over their combustible fridges and freezers for ages, I'm surprised more has not been made of this. Further, what about the fire service advise "in the event of fire stay in your flat/apartment and we'll come and get you" - How can anyone imagine that to be good advise. In a commercial building the advise is get out as soon as you hear the fire alarm which must be tested weekly and audible all over the building. High rise commercial properties must have sprinklers.
Now then, with 270 flats in Grenfell tower and lets say 4 occupants per flat and 90% flats occupied that's 972 people potentially yet less than 100 accounted for in total - Maybe the cladding is being used as a cover up in more ways then one!





Never under estimate the ingenuity of an idiot!

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coyoteboy

posted on 28/6/17 at 12:18 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Welcome to the world we have created.

Yes, removal of CFC's and other (variously halogenated variants) has become the focus of environmental zealots. Problem is, they're extremely good at what they do. Damn good refrigerants, extinguishing mediums and useful for blowing foams (yes, another can of isocyanate worms). Thing is, the environmental zealots are always joyous that things have been removed/banned but rarely seem to consider the 'cons' of replacement.

But yes, explosive/flammable refrigerants pumped by a 240V compressor (made by the lowest bidder) cooling a box 24/7 that's insulated with polyisocyanurates.

Plenty of examples of this, lead in petrol, electric cars, biomass etc., etc.

Whether it's all done for the sake of job creation, money making (the usual) or out of a misguided brainwashing by the misinformed liberatarians, or some other aim, from a purely scientific viewpoint (yes, I am one) it's often nonsensical.


Well that's an interesting viewpoint. A bit weird and Trump-esque.

In order to push towards better things for us all new products need developing.

Some of these have alternative risks.

Sometimes these risks are not mitigated properly because the people working on them are human.

FFS.






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Mr Whippy

posted on 28/6/17 at 12:28 PM Reply With Quote
probably far less dangerous than the gas hobs and ovens used for decades

look up washing machine spider corrosion for real scary pics for potential appliance disaster...

ours has just failed after only a few years normal use, fortunately I checked to see what was going on rather than ignore it

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SteveWallace

posted on 28/6/17 at 01:49 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Welcome to the world we have created.

Yes, removal of CFC's and other (variously halogenated variants) has become the focus of environmental zealots. Problem is, they're extremely good at what they do. Damn good refrigerants, extinguishing mediums and useful for blowing foams (yes, another can of isocyanate worms). Thing is, the environmental zealots are always joyous that things have been removed/banned but rarely seem to consider the 'cons' of replacement.

But yes, explosive/flammable refrigerants pumped by a 240V compressor (made by the lowest bidder) cooling a box 24/7 that's insulated with polyisocyanurates.

Plenty of examples of this, lead in petrol, electric cars, biomass etc., etc.

Whether it's all done for the sake of job creation, money making (the usual) or out of a misguided brainwashing by the misinformed liberatarians, or some other aim, from a purely scientific viewpoint (yes, I am one) it's often nonsensical.


Whilst I agree that products should be made to be safe, failure of manufacturers to respond with safe engineering solutions to environmental challenges should not be used as an excuse to continue to trash the environment.

There is sometimes some rubbish science used to justify an environmental position, but on the whole, its fairly obvious that we live on one small planet that has finite resources and a finite capacity to deal with our emissions. There are excess human deaths caused by the hole in the ozone layer caused by CFC's as well as other impacts on the biosphere. Other emissions, e.g. urban pollution, shortens life for some people - particularly the frail and elderly. And don't get me started on climate change!

We, quite rightly, respond with horror and demand action when we see a tragedy like Grenfell, but as a species we are much less able to recognise and process long term impacts where we cannot see the cause and effect at the same time. However, this does not mean that they are any less real.





"I know every nut and bolt and cog in that car, I built it myself" - The Prisoner, 1967

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Mash

posted on 28/6/17 at 05:28 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by chillis
Given that Which have been chasing Hotpoint over their combustible fridges and freezers for ages, I'm surprised more has not been made of this. Further, what about the fire service advise "in the event of fire stay in your flat/apartment and we'll come and get you" - How can anyone imagine that to be good advise. In a commercial building the advise is get out as soon as you hear the fire alarm which must be tested weekly and audible all over the building. High rise commercial properties must have sprinklers.
Now then, with 270 flats in Grenfell tower and lets say 4 occupants per flat and 90% flats occupied that's 972 people potentially yet less than 100 accounted for in total - Maybe the cladding is being used as a cover up in more ways then one!


I think the FS advice is based on a number of things. Fire doors, for example will protect you for a specified period if 1, they are closed, and 2, they are actually fitted in the first place. If the flats had all had proper fire doors fitted, and there were fire doors in the corridors then that should protect the occupants for a specified period from small fires in other flats. This of course is dependant on the outside of the building not going up in flames in less than that period, and the cladding (which LFB had apparently warned GL Councils about already) allowed that to happen.

Fire Services have nothing to gain by giving out bad advice, unlike unscrupulous contractors/cost cutting Councils who allow sub standard cladding to be fitted. The first appliance was on scene within 8 minutes, and the boys were in there attempting to rescue people on the 20th plus floors when all you could see outside was flames.

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britishtrident

posted on 29/6/17 at 07:28 AM Reply With Quote
The Grenfell fire shows the leasons lfrom the 1973 Summerland fire on the I.O.M have been forgotten. About every 3 years we have a fire or other disaster or major incident that causes a high level inquiry and a complete rethink of regulations and codes of practice, but in the end are we any safer? Not only it seems not, as one danger is dealt with another emerges but very quickly the leasons from previous tragedies are forgotten.

On the subject of Trump and Trump like politicians the series BrainDead on Amazon TV is worth watching -- very funny.





[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]

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Bluemoon

posted on 29/6/17 at 11:16 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by motorcycle_mayhem
Welcome to the world we have created.

Yes, removal of CFC's and other (variously halogenated variants) has become the focus of environmental zealots. Problem is, they're extremely good at what they do. Damn good refrigerants, extinguishing mediums and useful for blowing foams (yes, another can of isocyanate worms). Thing is, the environmental zealots are always joyous that things have been removed/banned but rarely seem to consider the 'cons' of replacement.

But yes, explosive/flammable refrigerants pumped by a 240V compressor (made by the lowest bidder) cooling a box 24/7 that's insulated with polyisocyanurates.

Plenty of examples of this, lead in petrol, electric cars, biomass etc., etc.

Whether it's all done for the sake of job creation, money making (the usual) or out of a misguided brainwashing by the misinformed liberatarians, or some other aim, from a purely scientific viewpoint (yes, I am one) it's often nonsensical.


I guess you like ozone depletion and increased exposure to UV... I for one don't wish to see my children getting exposed to increased UV. the CFC argument is one where regulation has helped and the ozone hole is recovering:



As with all things there are always risks just depends on what you view as important.

Dan

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02GF74

posted on 29/6/17 at 07:02 PM Reply With Quote
Everyone one is wise after the fact but the bottom line is this is due to money and the selfish gene.

We do the best we can to give us and our close family the best chances of surviving. That is why there are more SUV type cars on the roads, I can't see that a 12 inch ground clearance is really necessary for the weekly Waitrose shop but having more metal around you and more space around you so extra air bags can be fitted will improve your chances of survival in a crash and nutsack to the occupants in the other car.

Having more police, firemen, nurses, better equipped hostipals etc is all fine and dandy until you have to pay for it, then it's a case of "Well, you know my house isn't likely to burn down and as I'm healthy right now, then I'd rather not pay for hospitals that I do not need thnk you very much".

Regarding the tower blocks, more expensive cladding could have been used but is anyone here volunteering to pay for it? No, and there is nothing wrong with that, it is the selfish gene at work - you'd rather spend the money on yourself/close family than on total strangers. And does it stop there?

There was something in the web about sprinklers were going to fitted to Grenfell but the majority of residents did not want it due to the disruption and presumably would be an increase in rent. So its a trade off to help the majority i.e. council tax payers at the cost of the minority i.e.in this case the residents. I doubt very much the council that proposes to hike up council tax to pay for the recladding, sprinklers system, more fire engines and fire personal would get voted in.






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minibull

posted on 30/6/17 at 02:35 AM Reply With Quote
Of course the major reason the cladding is on high rise buildings anyway is to protect the environment. It's there to improve thermal efficiency and help combat climate change. Corbyn was correct in that these people died as a result of political decisions, however the politics of his party are just as responsible as any. The argument about creating a safer healthier world is all smoke and mirrors anyway. Climate change, waste in the oceans, animal extinctions perpetual warfare , migrants refugees etc, etc. They all have one cause and that is over population of the planet by one species and that no one is prepared to tackle. It is much easier to focus on the symptoms and ignore the problem. That's my lot as a profit of doom for the week.
Mick

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Mr Whippy

posted on 5/7/17 at 07:02 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by minibull
Of course the major reason the cladding is on high rise buildings anyway is to protect the environment. It's there to improve thermal efficiency and help combat climate change. Corbyn was correct in that these people died as a result of political decisions, however the politics of his party are just as responsible as any. The argument about creating a safer healthier world is all smoke and mirrors anyway. Climate change, waste in the oceans, animal extinctions perpetual warfare , migrants refugees etc, etc. They all have one cause and that is over population of the planet by one species and that no one is prepared to tackle. It is much easier to focus on the symptoms and ignore the problem. That's my lot as a profit of doom for the week.
Mick


imo overpopulation isn't really the route cause of the above as we really use only a tiny part of the worlds available surface and resources, the vast majority of the planet is mostly unpopulated. Add to that we are just not a very nice species to ourselves or anything else unless it suits us, both uncaring and overall rather nasty. There probably is not other creature on the planet that is so bad to own kind, quite sad really but also probably why we are so dominant over everything else, we've just evolved to be this bad.

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motorcycle_mayhem

posted on 5/7/17 at 11:10 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by minibull
Of course the major reason the cladding is on high rise buildings anyway is to protect the environment. It's there to improve thermal efficiency and help combat climate change.
Mick


There's me thinking that the tower blocks (particularly in such affluent areas) were being clad to appease the households below bemoaning the visual detriment to their house prices. I really must stop being so cynical.

I'm also one who believes that it would be a good idea if the human race took a pause from breeding. Yes, the planet can support our need, but not our greed (which celebrity said that, can't remember). Greed will always dominate, and the population is getting a bit out of hand in the desirable bits.

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