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Author: Subject: cooling pipework routing
Daz1234

posted on 10/9/18 at 08:22 PM Reply With Quote
cooling pipework routing

Hi all

Just trying to get my head around this - running a Zetec turbo, added plumbing for the turbo - can anyone confirm if this routing is ok? Specifically the routing for the turbo cooling.

PS credit to forum owner of original image (which I have butchered!)

Thanks

Darren


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CosKev3

posted on 10/9/18 at 09:02 PM Reply With Quote
That looks wrong to me.

Coming out of the thermostat the coolant is leaving the engine so hot,that pipe that runs to the lower rad hose is wrong as that would be putting hot coolant into the coolant that's been cooled by the radiator.

Also the small 'bleed' pipe coming off the top of the rad should go straight back to the top of header tank,this bleeds off any air in the rad.

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Daz1234

posted on 10/9/18 at 09:09 PM Reply With Quote
couldnt fit on pit but the turbo has its own mini radiator so water comes from engine (hot) then goes through turbo rad (cools) then through turbo, then back to top of radiator.

The 'red' pipe that goes from thermostat to bottom hose (just before pump) is used when the thermostat is closed, eg so water is still circulating even when thermostat is closed.

Login taken from here:




[Edited on 10/9/18 by Daz1234]

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Daz1234

posted on 10/9/18 at 09:24 PM Reply With Quote
original diagram was from

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/viewthread.php?tid=178112

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big_wasa

posted on 11/9/18 at 12:32 PM Reply With Quote
Ford used a take of direct from the head, sandwiched between the head and the thermostat housing. They then returned it to the thermostat bypass hose.

The bypass hose and the header tank should be T'ed in near the water pump. What is referred to on the donor as the spider hose.

If you do it nearer the thermostat some people have found a pumping up affect on the header tank.

The bleed on the top of the rad should be T'ed with the bleed on the thermostat housing and the one on top of the header tank.

[Edited on 11/9/18 by big_wasa]

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Daz1234

posted on 11/9/18 at 01:11 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
Ford used a take of direct from the head, sandwiched between the head and the thermostat housing. They then returned it to the thermostat bypass hose.

The bypass hose and the header tank should be T'ed in near the water pump. What is referred to on the donor as the spider hose.

If you do it nearer the thermostat some people have found a pumping up affect on the header tank.

The bleed on the top of the rad should be T'ed with the bleed on the thermostat housing and the one on top of the header tank.

[Edited on 11/9/18 by big_wasa]


Hi thanks for the reply.

Yes thats whats happening its like the water it being pulled up into the header tank!

My drawing was actually slightly incorrect. Here is the correct (current) routing.

So I seem to be pulling water into the header tank and Im not cooling the engine!

If anyone is willing to show be a 'corrected' drawing id be very grateful



Darren

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02GF74

posted on 11/9/18 at 02:02 PM Reply With Quote
Hmm. Firstly to be clear, is the turbo rad cooling the turbo, and is not a water/air cooler for the compressed air?

Any pumping system that had parallel runs is a bit pot luck regarding flow, the majority of the water will take the path of least resistance.

My guess is the turbo would be happier running at higher temp than the engine so why not have one circuit.

Engine - turbo - radiator.

[Edited on 11/9/18 by 02GF74]





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Daz1234

posted on 11/9/18 at 04:03 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 02GF74
Hmm. Firstly to be clear, is the turbo rad cooling the turbo, and is not a water/air cooler for the compressed air?

Any pumping system that had parallel runs is a bit pot luck regarding flow, the majority of the water will take the path of least resistance.

My guess is the turbo would be happier running at higher temp than the engine so why not have one circuit.

Engine - turbo - radiator.

[Edited on 11/9/18 by 02GF74]


The turbo rad is to cool the turbo.

water comes out the engine (hot), goes through the turbo rad to cool, then through the turbo, then back to main rad.

One circuit would not work because the pipe dia would be all over the place.

Surely you must be able to have multiple routing? What about track card with multiple rad etc?

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big_wasa

posted on 11/9/18 at 05:27 PM Reply With Quote
your diagram is still wrong mate.

You have the coolant feed from the stat. This doesn’t flow constantly. Only when the stat is open. The Turbo would see no flow when cold.

You have the turbo returning to the radiator bleed. this is an out let to expel any air that's got trapped like the one on the thermostat housing. They both go to the top of the header tank.

The turbo return wants to go to the bottom hose near the water pump like the thermostat bypass and header tank although you could put into the bypass hose as per pic. but don't put the header tank into it as well.

Turbo supply wants to be direct from the head either Fords sandwich plate or tap the head behind the coil bracket.

ref for the picture ive butchered is Daf



[Edited on 11/9/18 by big_wasa]

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big_wasa

posted on 11/9/18 at 05:45 PM Reply With Quote
This is what ford used on the Focus Rs.



I think it’s an m14 banjo with a 12mm I’d pipe.

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big_wasa

posted on 11/9/18 at 05:53 PM Reply With Quote


In action....

What hp are you planning on running ? I’ve seen the airtec pre turbo rads but I fail to to see any gains in a modest set up and I would say the charge temperature is more important

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Daz1234

posted on 11/9/18 at 08:22 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks guys. few questions:

1. "radiator bleed. this is an out let to expel any air that's got trapped" - ok but is it one way - eg can water flow in or only out? Just wondering whats causing the issues im having with water coming back up into the header tank).

2. Turbo return: surely you would want to put the return from the turbo (by this time bloody hot water) back through your main rad to cool it no?
Otherwise you are putting that boiling coolant straight back into the engine?

3. You have lost me re feeding the turbo directly from the head - Why is that? Where does that plate go?

PS im running a T3 at 1bar. Probably dont need it but just wanted to add water cooling to the turbo as a added bit of protection (why not I thought ...) - I have the airtec rad which ive installed on the car.

Help very much appreciated

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big_wasa

posted on 12/9/18 at 08:11 AM Reply With Quote
That alloy plate is sandwiched between the head and the thermostat housing.
I.e. the coolant is taken direct from the head to the turbo.

The bleed is what it says.

Re backing up your header tank have you connected it to the bypass hose or the spider hose ie the pipe from the water pump.
I know it looks the same thing but plenty of people have found it doesn't do the same thing. Of course for every one that says it doesn't work thrre will be some one that says it does.

Re the turbo pre cooler. I've not come across any one that says it's needed at the 250hp your shooting for. I would get it working with out and add it latter if there is a benefit.

I would pay more attention to charge tempreture.

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Daz1234

posted on 12/9/18 at 09:22 AM Reply With Quote
Thanks for your help

Ok I think for now ill bypass the turbo cooling and get the rest of it working correctly as you say..... Ideally I want to use it, if nothing else for the time and money to get it all lol

Do you know where I can get the alloy plate from should I choose to add it in later?

Bleed - before I tried to add this turbo cooling I used to have the bleed on the main radiator capped off, as well as the bleed on the header tank (see pic). Just had a bleed running form thermostat to header tank as per pic below.

Seemed to work ok but should I hook up the bleed on the rad to the bleed pipe on the header too - and if so which pipe should I connect to (see pic below - in green)



Backing up header - the header tank tee's into the bypass hose currently - see pic below - which then tee's into the 'spider host' (eg the one that goes to pump).

So in your pic you have 2 separate hoses running to the 'spider' hose (one from header, one from thermostat) where as on my plumbing I have joined/tee'd the two together just by the thermostat and ran one hose down to the 'spider' hose. Maybe that is the problem there and I should run the two separately?.



Thanks again!

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big_wasa

posted on 12/9/18 at 11:24 AM Reply With Quote
Yes if you do a search lots of people have had problems with the header backing up when T'ed intro the bypass. (Not every body)

Not all radiators have a bleed but if you have one I would use it as it just works.

Your alloy header looks to have an over flow ? I.e. above the cap. It shouldn't be over flowing to need piping it.

The alloy adapter plate is no longer available from ford. There are billet ones on eBay but an An6 fitting into the head is a cheap solution.

Don't bypass the turbo coolant but I would hold of the pre rad until its sorted.

What's it in ?

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big_wasa

posted on 12/9/18 at 11:25 AM Reply With Quote
I would also have the turbo return to a separate spur in the bottom hose. Ik know it adds to the plumbing.
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Daz1234

posted on 12/9/18 at 11:47 AM Reply With Quote
Thanks for the reply. MK Indy.

Never used to have water cooling on the turbo... was just something I wanted to add.

Just so i'm clear and before I go buy a load more hosing and connectors

1. I want the rad bleed and thermostat bleed to t-together and go to the top right fitting on the header tank?
2. The other fitting on the header tank.. 'overflow' (just under the cap) should I just run a hose from that to the floor?
3. So I need to run 2 separate hoses to the 'spider hose' - 1 from header, 1 from thermostat (the bypass)?
4. where should I ideally plumb the in/out for the turbo?

Thanks again.

PS "billet ones on eBay" - what would I be searching for?

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big_wasa

posted on 12/9/18 at 01:05 PM Reply With Quote
I am not saying this way is the only way it will work but it's how Ford did it in the Focus Rs and it works.

eBay Item

[Edited on 12/9/18 by big_wasa]

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big_wasa

posted on 12/9/18 at 01:11 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Daz1234
Thanks for the reply. MK Indy.

1. I want the rad bleed and thermostat bleed to t-together and go to the top right fitting on the header tank?

Yes.


2. The other fitting on the header tank.. 'overflow' (just under the cap) should I just run a hose from that to the floor?

Could do. It stops coolant over flowing into the car and over your feet if it does over flow.

3. So I need to run 2 separate hoses to the 'spider hose' - 1 from header, 1 from thermostat (the bypass)?
Yes

4. where should I ideally plumb the in/out for the turbo?

Ideally a third separate hose to the spider hose or T into the bypass hose.


I would be interested in a picture of the engine bay with it installed. What are you using for the inlet manifold ?

Cheers

[Edited on 12/9/18 by big_wasa]

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Daz1234

posted on 12/9/18 at 01:29 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
I am not saying this way is the only way it will work but it's how Ford did it in the Focus Rs and it works.

eBay Item

[Edited on 12/9/18 by big_wasa]


no thats cool but if you could clarify those points for me Id be grateful - not trying to pin you down but I want to order the correct hoses and bits ASAP so want to ensure i get the right bits

Doug

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big_wasa

posted on 12/9/18 at 02:43 PM Reply With Quote
1. I want the rad bleed and thermostat bleed to t-together and go to the top right fitting on the header tank? 

Yes. 


2. The other fitting on the header tank.. 'overflow' (just under the cap) should I just run a hose from that to the floor? 

Could do. It stops coolant over flowing into the car and over your feet if it does over flow. 

3. So I need to run 2 separate hoses to the 'spider hose' - 1 from header, 1 from thermostat (the bypass)? 
Yes 

4. where should I ideally plumb the in/out for the turbo? 

Ideally a third separate hose to the spider hose or T into the bypass hose.

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Daz1234

posted on 12/9/18 at 04:33 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by big_wasa
1. I want the rad bleed and thermostat bleed to t-together and go to the top right fitting on the header tank? 

Yes. 


2. The other fitting on the header tank.. 'overflow' (just under the cap) should I just run a hose from that to the floor? 

Could do. It stops coolant over flowing into the car and over your feet if it does over flow. 

3. So I need to run 2 separate hoses to the 'spider hose' - 1 from header, 1 from thermostat (the bypass)? 
Yes 

4. where should I ideally plumb the in/out for the turbo? 

Ideally a third separate hose to the spider hose or T into the bypass hose.


Perfect thanks.

Does seem strange putting the a hose from the turbo (hot), straight back into the engine rather than back into the rad? Surely is would be better to go:

From the engine (using that plate/adaptor jobby) > through the turbo > into top hose just before rad?

Would that work do you think?

Darren

[Edited on 12/9/18 by Daz1234]

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big_wasa

posted on 12/9/18 at 04:58 PM Reply With Quote
I figured Ford new what they where doing when they turboed the Zetec in the Rs.

So what inlet manifold are you running ?

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Daz1234

posted on 12/9/18 at 05:45 PM Reply With Quote
Haha true

Custom made

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big_wasa

posted on 12/9/18 at 06:09 PM Reply With Quote
So, got a picture ?
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