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Author: Subject: Mid Engined BEC Build Questions - would like some advice before I start
woodsy144

posted on 6/3/19 at 09:24 PM Reply With Quote
Mid Engined BEC Build Questions - would like some advice before I start

Hello Peoples.
I would like to ask some questions.
I am looking at building a mid engined vehicle using chain drive, electric reverse. R1 engine.
Car will be for a bit of touring, club runs / events, some track work and the occasionally driving to and from work. So basically everything.
My thinking of a BEC is because of the high rev'ing engine, sequential gearbox and light weight design

Questions
- What modifications do I have to make to the engine to make it usable in this format
- What size fuel tank should I am for based on typical BEC fuel consumption
- Emission testing in the UK, is there anything you have to do to the engine to get it passed (I am in AU, so the testing is not the same, but would like to get an understanding)
- Oil surge - is it an issue with the R1? What mods are required? Baffle plate / oil accumulator?
- Is there any other engines that I should look at that may be better suited?

Any other advice for new players?

Thank you for your time.

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Sam_68

posted on 6/3/19 at 09:49 PM Reply With Quote
AU as in Australia, or Austria, or African Union?

If Australia, then as i understand it, some States (notably Victoria, I think) are virtually impossible to register BECs for road use, and the regs are much tighter than UK wherever you are.

I would strongly suggest that you join up to the OzClubbies forum and ask the same questions on there.

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woodsy144

posted on 7/3/19 at 04:28 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sam_68
AU as in Australia, or Austria, or African Union?

If Australia, then as i understand it, some States (notably Victoria, I think) are virtually impossible to register BECs for road use, and the regs are much tighter than UK wherever you are.

I would strongly suggest that you join up to the OzClubbies forum and ask the same questions on there.


In Victoria Australia, currently you have to do an emissions test to comply the vehicle. With the current rules there is no limit on what engine you can run. So if you run a bike engine as long as it passes the emissions test.
Previously, yes it was difficult / impossible to use a bike engine because you had to run a 'car' engine.
The test is an IM240 test at set levels. (still to confirm the exact test numbers).

To date, to the best of my knowledge no one has tried to build and register a BEC in Victoria under the current rules. Therefore I am trying to gather as much information as possible.

[Edited on 7/3/19 by woodsy144]

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AdamR20

posted on 7/3/19 at 06:19 AM Reply With Quote
Which R1 engine exactly?

I go for about 25-30L tank, baffled so you can run it low, but long range if needed

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Ugg10

posted on 7/3/19 at 07:18 AM Reply With Quote
Here’s a bit of inspiration for the diff and chain drive. http://www.westwalestrikeshack.co.uk/online-shop.php#!/Chain-Drive-Differentials/c/2358049/offset=0&sort=normal





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russbost

posted on 7/3/19 at 09:11 AM Reply With Quote
Baffles are available for the R1, but not sure how suitable for engine in it's "normal" position, they are designed for North South installations, no experience with the R1, but have used Kawasaki ZX10/ZZR1100 & ZZR1400 in standard position with no mods at all

Those diff setups from Trike shack are very well priced & can save a load of fabrication & design, I use the donor starter motor (Toyota MR2 Mk1) with our car as a reverse, with specially made sprocket attached to the diff (also from the donor)


[img] Chain drive diff
Chain drive diff
[/img]

Use the highest ratio on the chain drive that you realistically can, I run 3.28:1 using the ZZR1400 engine & running big wheels/tyres 255/45/17, so circumference is 2078mm, compare that to a 7 running 185/60/13 at 1735mm & that would be the same as running a 2.73 ratio. OK the ZZR1400 has a fair bit more torque than an R1, but having a full tank of fuel & a 2nd person on board makes little difference to the acceleration & my car isn't particularly light in the first place (565kg), if you are talking about a 7 style car should be able to knock best part of 100kg off that

Using a chain drive NEVER use an exact ratio, like 14 to 42, ie 3:1 it will setup horrible vibrations & oscillations - I speak from experience!

Having the high diff ratio may impact initial acceleration off the mark, but a bit of clutchslip & wheelspin will compensate for that if you are going for a real "launch" & if not just accept that best performance is going to be from, say, 20mph upwards, mine cruises at 70mph with 4750rpm, it's an awful lot more relaxed than most bike engined installs & I've toured to Le Mans & back with no stress

I run a 6 gallon tank, cruising (ie when touring) at around 70 - 80mph I get a bit over 30 mpg, so realistic range (without panicking!) of around 150-160 miles, I can imagine in AUS you might want a bit more range?

In regard to emissions, for IVA test CO 0.2% at 2500-3000rpm, 0.3% at idle, lambda 0.97-1.03 is achieved by using power commander as a piggy back on standard ECU & a ordinary universal roadgoing CAT, we don't use a lambda sensor, simply modify the fuelling map until emissions are satisfactory. Lambda is by far the biggest headache, but just bear in mind that even for 3,000 rpm you've got less than 5% throttle, so this is the only area of the map you need to worry about

A ZZR1400 will cost substantially more than an R1, but I really cannot recommend the engine highly enough, though you should find the R1 perfectly adequate





Furore Formula Car - the only two seater modern Formula Car lookalike. I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

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woodsy144

posted on 11/3/19 at 04:52 AM Reply With Quote
Thank you all for your replies. It has definitely helped.

Talking to the local guys here, one of the other issues raised is noise.

Im have to confirm the numbers exactly but there are 2 tests we have to do, a stationary and vehicle in motion.

Stationary test is 3/4 of engine speed at max power, mic at 45deg, 1m away 78db

Motion test is 50km/h, 7.5m away, 90db.

I know this doesn't really correlate with IVA testing, but from your collective experience is this impossible?

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AdamR20

posted on 11/3/19 at 05:26 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by woodsy144
Stationary test is 3/4 of engine speed at max power, mic at 45deg, 1m away 78db


I guess nothing is impossible but... that is a very tough target. Many of our track days over here are usually 105db tested in the same way, readings over 100 aren't uncommon.

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russbost

posted on 11/3/19 at 08:07 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by woodsy144
Thank you all for your replies. It has definitely helped.

Talking to the local guys here, one of the other issues raised is noise.

Im have to confirm the numbers exactly but there are 2 tests we have to do, a stationary and vehicle in motion.

Stationary test is 3/4 of engine speed at max power, mic at 45deg, 1m away 78db

Motion test is 50km/h, 7.5m away, 90db.

I know this doesn't really correlate with IVA testing, but from your collective experience is this impossible?


Is it possible you have those 2 figures the wrong way round? Drive by test usually has a much lower limit than the stationary simply because you are significantly further away? 78dB stationary is very, very low indeed





Furore Formula Car - the only two seater modern Formula Car lookalike. I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

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woodsy144

posted on 11/3/19 at 09:10 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
quote:
Originally posted by woodsy144
Thank you all for your replies. It has definitely helped.

Talking to the local guys here, one of the other issues raised is noise.

Im have to confirm the numbers exactly but there are 2 tests we have to do, a stationary and vehicle in motion.

Stationary test is 3/4 of engine speed at max power, mic at 45deg, 1m away 78db

Motion test is 50km/h, 7.5m away, 90db.

I know this doesn't really correlate with IVA testing, but from your collective experience is this impossible?


Is it possible you have those 2 figures the wrong way round? Drive by test usually has a much lower limit than the stationary simply because you are significantly further away? 78dB stationary is very, very low indeed



https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2006L01279

Sorry I did get them around the wrong way.
77 for vehicle in motion
90 for stationary

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russbost

posted on 11/3/19 at 09:19 AM Reply With Quote
90 stationary would be difficult to achieve, but not impossible. You will need a good, large, multiple silencer, sound deadening around the air intake area & some considerable soundproofing of the engine bay as a whole, but I'm sure it could be done.





Furore Formula Car - the only two seater modern Formula Car lookalike. I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours. http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1

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minieleven11

posted on 11/3/19 at 09:36 PM Reply With Quote
Hi, I am in Victoria Australia as well and I have just finished building an R1 powered mini it's just a race car and I haven't gone through any of the engineering certificates, but I have done a bit of testing with oil surge and found that I needed an accumulator and baffle plate. I can supply baffle plates depending on what engine you are using?
I also made my own chain driven diff setup and I am more than happy to share some info on that as well.

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woodsy144

posted on 11/3/19 at 09:55 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by minieleven11
Hi, I am in Victoria Australia as well and I have just finished building an R1 powered mini it's just a race car and I haven't gone through any of the engineering certificates, but I have done a bit of testing with oil surge and found that I needed an accumulator and baffle plate. I can supply baffle plates depending on what engine you are using?
I also made my own chain driven diff setup and I am more than happy to share some info on that as well.


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