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Author: Subject: Traction control
RichardB123

posted on 19/9/19 at 03:36 PM Reply With Quote
Traction control

I would like to ask if anyone is using a traction control system on their kit car?

Thanks
Richard

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nick205

posted on 19/9/19 at 04:09 PM Reply With Quote
I didn't on my MK Indy it was simply brain, foot and engine.

I'd imagine to tansfer traction control from a tin top donor to a 7 type car might be hard work. The setup would probably need re-calibrating to take account of the difference in vehicle mass and power to weight ratio.

There may be IVA constraints/considerations around it as well.

[Edited on 19/9/19 by nick205]

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coyoteboy

posted on 19/9/19 at 04:27 PM Reply With Quote
I intend to be running it, but only fairly dumb - checking rear wheel speeds vs front wheel speeds and cutting timing if one goes >10% slip. I have no experience in fitting it to an actual car though, and I suspect it kind of goes against the grain for most folk.





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Angel Acevedo

posted on 19/9/19 at 04:46 PM Reply With Quote
As far as I know, Production Car Traction control uses ABS sensors and braking system adding weight and complexity to a car that is supposed to be light and simple.
What is the purpose of using traction control?
Learning?
Safety?
Bragging Rights?
I used to have a Series One BMW, whenever while playing I abused the happy pedal on marginal traction surfaces, I ended up with overheating pads and disks.
I reckon wise use of the happy pedal will take care of most slippery driving conditions.
Coyoteboy approach sounds simple enough and does not involve ABS braking... So it may be a good start.
All of the above not to deter you from trying...
Regards
AA





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gaz_gaz

posted on 19/9/19 at 04:48 PM Reply With Quote
I'm using a system similar to that described above (by coyoteboy) It's a feature of the DTA S100 ecu I'm using.
It can be on or off, Has a 10 position rotary switch to adjust the level of aggression and a switch for a wet mode.

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rodgling

posted on 19/9/19 at 11:13 PM Reply With Quote
I have a race logic box. It does full-throttle upshifts, which is brilliant, TC, which I don't really use (occasionally if I'm driving too/from a trackday when it's wet and cold), and launch control, which I don't use at all. It is worth it for the flat upshifts though.
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Paul_Arion

posted on 20/9/19 at 07:49 AM Reply With Quote
Not got it on a kit car but have fully programmable traction control on my Force Hillclimb car. This is provided via the aftermarket ECU I am using (DTA S100 Pro) and uses 4 wheel speed sensors to calculate any wheel spin which the ECU can then limit as per input settings.
It can be done therefore - and with minimal additional weight (but at a cost probably only worthwhile if you’re already looking for an aftermarket ECU)

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RichardB123

posted on 20/9/19 at 07:49 AM Reply With Quote
Interesting replies.

I was looking at secondhand racelogic kits.
They do require the car to be fuel injected and have abs sensors (although you can fit these yourself)

It wouldnt be an OE traction control system, which are very rarely suitable for track driving.

The idea would be a bit of safety net whilst learning or on a damp/uneven road.

[Edited on 20/9/19 by RichardB123]

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nick205

posted on 20/9/19 at 09:10 AM Reply With Quote
I know driving tin tops on wet/slippery roads with too much happy pedal makes the traction control step in. You can feel it stutter at the brakes and limit engine power to try and prevent the vehicle from losing traction. Sometimes welcome, sometimes not. If you're driving on the road where other road users are present then it's welcome to limit risk to yourself and others. Personally I didn't want this on my kit car and chose not to drive the car on wet slippery roads.
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talkingshte

posted on 20/9/19 at 10:15 AM Reply With Quote
Best way to learn is to just get out and drive it gently, then you actually learn where the cars limits are, rather than just smashing it into the traction control.
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nick205

posted on 20/9/19 at 10:51 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by talkingshte
Best way to learn is to just get out and drive it gently, then you actually learn where the cars limits are, rather than just smashing it into the traction control.



Spot on - learn the car and the limits - not the traction control's!

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gaz_gaz

posted on 20/9/19 at 04:02 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nick205
quote:
Originally posted by talkingshte
Best way to learn is to just get out and drive it gently, then you actually learn where the cars limits are, rather than just smashing it into the traction control.



Spot on - learn the car and the limits - not the traction control's!


LOL..

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coyoteboy

posted on 22/9/19 at 12:11 AM Reply With Quote
I'm not sure I agree with the machismo here. While of course it's great to get practice, you're not going to get that very quickly on the road and the road is the place where TC is useful as there's so many unpredictable surfaces and conditions. My tin top gets driven with the TC on most of the time because when it does bite its usually at a time I'm not expecting it, not when I'm trying to learn the limits.





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talkingshte

posted on 22/9/19 at 11:08 PM Reply With Quote
It's not machoness, it's just better not to rely on that. It won't save you all the time.
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coyoteboy

posted on 23/9/19 at 12:46 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by talkingshte
It's not machoness, it's just better not to rely on that. It won't save you all the time.


Not suggesting relying on it. But it's there to catch your mistakes, not to be used as a limiter. It's very good for day to day use and catching mistakes people make when not trying to push limits. Turn it off for the track and learn those limits somewhere safe. To suggest never having it on because it's best to learn to drive without it is just bluster, of course you need to know how to handle a car without, but it's always better to have a driving aid switched on when you're not actively trying to do things that upset it 😂

If your driving triggers traction control in normal use, you need more skill.

[Edited on 23/9/19 by coyoteboy]





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RichardB123

posted on 23/9/19 at 07:52 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
I'm not sure I agree with the machismo here. While of course it's great to get practice, you're not going to get that very quickly on the road and the road is the place where TC is useful as there's so many unpredictable surfaces and conditions. My tin top gets driven with the TC on most of the time because when it does bite its usually at a time I'm not expecting it, not when I'm trying to learn the limits.


This is exactly what I was thinking.

I wouldn't be purposefully using it to get me around a corner, it wont do that anyway.
Might just save my arse if I made a mistake, and the rest of the time it woudnt hurt to be there.

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talkingshte

posted on 24/9/19 at 02:45 AM Reply With Quote
Spend the money on a few wet teackdays, will be effort better spent.
What are you building, out of interest? I always found the lack of torque in a bec to make it quite forgiving, you could be quite liberal with the power without it biting back, unless you were leaning hard on it already...

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nick205

posted on 24/9/19 at 09:12 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by talkingshte
Spend the money on a few wet teackdays, will be effort better spent.
What are you building, out of interest? I always found the lack of torque in a bec to make it quite forgiving, you could be quite liberal with the power without it biting back, unless you were leaning hard on it already...



I've not had a BEC so can't comment on that, but what you say makes sense.

My comment above about traction control stepping in is based on diesel tin tops with healthy amounts of torque.

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Andrzejsr

posted on 25/9/19 at 12:43 PM Reply With Quote
Putting aside pros / cons of TC (personally I think it is great , helping to get better lap times on track, no or minimizing lift and corrections on exits. But I am just learning RWD. Then - it has 6 steps and could be set to "off" , for example : http://www.racetcs.com/ ).

Anyway - it needs ABS sensors . I wonder where on the cortina upright (front axle Westfield SEiW) can be a place to fit a sensor ring and sensor itself ? On rear axle there is more place and propably easier to fit those. But front ? anyone tried ?

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gaz_gaz

posted on 25/9/19 at 02:39 PM Reply With Quote
i have a Westfield Aerorace like you but with a S2000 engine and sequential gearbox.

The DTA system used 4 hall effect sensors.

on the rear i have the sensor mounted to the rear alloy upright and it picks up a toothed trigger wheel mounted on the CV joint.

on the front the sensor is mounted off a bracket that attatches to the car where the cycle wing stay attaches to the front upright.
this sensor picks up on 1 of the bolt heads used to mount the brake disk to the alloy hub.

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Andrzejsr

posted on 25/9/19 at 03:12 PM Reply With Quote
@gaz_gaz - thank You for reply!
is it possible for You to take some pictures of the sensor and toothed trigger and their placement ? And what types of hall sensors You have mounted ?

Is it really sufficient for the system to work properly reading just the bolt heads (one of them per revolution? it might read 4? but it is much less than toothed ring used in ABS systems). I have talked to the person who invented and build the RaceTCS , he insists that it needs more signals per wheel revolution. Have to ask him again.

I can see that DTA S100 You are using is an standalone engine mangement with additional TC possibilities.
I have an KMS ECU for the engine management and would like to use RceTCS separate unit for TC, LC and flatshift options. It is much cheaper. I have to ask again if one signal will be sufficient.

Now I am lookig at the brake disc, maybe some toothed motorcyle rings could be adopted...

Aerorace and S2000 engine and sequential, well it seems to be ideal composition , I would like high revving engine, must be fun!!!
What model of sequential gearbox You have instaled ? I am looking at Elite Transmissions (mainly beacouse of weight and cost ) . Mayby in the future. For now a lot od car learning and setting etc.

[Edited on 25/9/19 by Andrzejsr]





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coyoteboy

posted on 26/9/19 at 11:54 AM Reply With Quote
Case in point being yesterday I was driving happily on a road near the M9, in my Hilux Surf. Left turn into a junction all seems fine, slowed right down to near walking pace. Turn into the side road, back end fishtails for about 30 yards at walking pace, with me very close to sideswiping 5 cars! At that point, in my car with TC, I'd have had no issues. In the Hilux I was wide-eyed countersteering like a loon. Of course a simple TC won't help that situation either.





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Andrzejsr

posted on 26/9/19 at 02:21 PM Reply With Quote
I am only familiar from users reports with one system, it is simple in instalation (assuming ABS sensors on the car) , but working properly :

https://youtu.be/xAfYHYLeoEA

Look at the time lost when cuntersteering. Hughe lost and slower turn exit --> then longer lap time.





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CosKev3

posted on 27/9/19 at 08:12 AM Reply With Quote
I've watched a turbo Westfield megabusa on curborough running circa 400bhp with a Life ECU controlling proper traction control and the grip he was getting was mental,as above for competition use with that sort of power the traction control would improve his times massively.

On a average power kit car mainly used on the road I would say it's not needed,as above if you are so concerned about car control do some track/off road driving somewhere and learn the grip levels

Correct tyres,dampers and suspension alignment and seven type cars are great on any road condition

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