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Author: Subject: BEC an Old Fiat 850
dyli

posted on 8/2/08 at 10:04 AM Reply With Quote
BEC an Old Fiat 850

Hello guys, my name ist mathias, i´m still living in "tüv controled" germany

I want to build an bike engined car with an old fiat 850 berlina as Base!
my Problem is that i have to build an rear engine car...

I talked here to the TÜV, and they tould me i can run the car streetlegal when i have an reverse gear and i DONT cut out the bottom of the car!

First Idea was an Midengine car but without cutting to the floor no midengine...

I want to bulid an subframe whitch is mountet at the original Gear and engine mounts...

what diff and reverse gear can i use?

I want to run an CBR1000RR or Blackbird Engine ( dont know what I get cheep)

Next Problem is because there is not enoth space i have to build in the engine Square, not inline like in the BEC 7 i have seen...

Anyone good idea how to realise that?

Sorry for my bad "rusty" english ist now about ten years ago that i talked last time english...

[Edited on 8/2/08 by dyli] Rescued attachment 850-1.gif
Rescued attachment 850-1.gif

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dyli

posted on 8/2/08 at 10:05 AM Reply With Quote
some more pic of the car, not mine but this typ i wana make BEC Rescued attachment auto_RM02_724kl.jpg
Rescued attachment auto_RM02_724kl.jpg

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dyli

posted on 8/2/08 at 10:05 AM Reply With Quote
technik Rescued attachment 850-3.gif
Rescued attachment 850-3.gif

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dyli

posted on 8/2/08 at 10:06 AM Reply With Quote
engine bay Rescued attachment galerie6_1.jpg
Rescued attachment galerie6_1.jpg

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nib1980

posted on 8/2/08 at 10:30 AM Reply With Quote
Hi and welcome.

Your english is fine! much better than my deutsch!

As regards your problem, I'm sure someone on here will be able to help, we're a fairly helpful bunch!

Neil

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Alez

posted on 8/2/08 at 11:03 AM Reply With Quote
I once considered a Seat 133 BEC conversion. This car has the same chassis and engine as the Fiat 850. My conclusion was the car is just too heavy for a bike engine low end torque (these cars are around one tonne if I remember well). Depending on the bike engine, if you don't want to abuse your clutch, the weight you want is 600 kg or lighter I think.

You can always build a spaceframe and GRP body that resembles the model you want, <500 kg car, not very TÜV friendly but nice. Here's a Hayabusa powered Fiat 600 look alike that a Spanish guy has just posted in a different forum:



PD: my English is cr*p as well and nobody seems to complain here, it's friendly people

[Edited on 8/2/08 by Alez]

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dyli

posted on 8/2/08 at 11:35 AM Reply With Quote
Hello Alez,
yes the 850 and the 133 is the same chassis...

the 850 wight´s still stock around 690KG so i thing i can drop down the wight of the car includet the bike engine to arround 600KG
Stock engine and Gear is i thing arround 120 KG!!

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minitici

posted on 8/2/08 at 12:02 PM Reply With Quote
You could rear mount the BEC engine and attach a jack-shaft to the gearbox sprocket to move the chain far enough to the left to drive to a chain drive differential in front of the engine.
Something similar is done with FWD Mini R1 conversions.

However with the setup shown you would not need the direction change transfer gear. A sprocket to sprocket arrangement would give the correct direction of rotation.
Reverse can be an electric motor acting on the differential, jackshaft or chain.

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twybrow

posted on 8/2/08 at 12:04 PM Reply With Quote
Someone on here has done a Fiat 500 BEC, might be worth trying to talk to him? Can't remember username just now...

Good luck with the build.






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rayward

posted on 8/2/08 at 02:17 PM Reply With Quote
UKlee70 has done a spaceframed fiat

Ray

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jkarran

posted on 8/2/08 at 04:54 PM Reply With Quote
Try browsing through http://www.16vminiclub.com/forums/ there's a few bike engine mini's in there for ideas (one of them is one I'm working on http://www.flickr.com/photos/22673337@N06/ ) Some are much more complex than others.

If you need mechanical reverse there's a couple of aftermarket options (not cheap), one is Quaife and I'm sure there's at least one other company making BEC reverse boxes/transaxels

Or you could look at chain driving part of your existing gearbox, perhaps keeping 1st, reverse and the diff (choose which gear pair you keep to give you the right final drive).

You could perhaps put the engine in the rear passenger space and chain drive back through a small hole in the old firewall to a diff (or the old gearbox). Would make cooling a problem but you may just fit it in and keep the TUV man happy???

Sounds like a fun project.
jk

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uklee70

posted on 8/2/08 at 06:36 PM Reply With Quote
You Rang !!!!!!

Hi Have a look in my pics but to be honest I have no fiat parts in my build and my body shell is fibreglass

quaife diff
race leda front uprights
and a MK engineering spaceframe
It's a baby MKGT !

But I'll help if I can

Lee

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dyli

posted on 8/2/08 at 08:03 PM Reply With Quote
hey guy´s thnks for helping me!

I have reading here and in the mini forum and this ist my first idea....

I dont have testet the dimensions but i thing i would work!

When i go out of the Gearbox a little bit back to an mountet sprocket-wheel an from this to the diff....

i think this would be the easyest way without cutting the firewall..( not allowed for tüv)

Than i have to take an starter Motor mounted to the sprocket-wheel as reverse gear?

I wana meassure next week at a Honda dealer how big the engine from a xx is...

what do you thing would this work with 2 chains? Rescued attachment bec-idea.jpg
Rescued attachment bec-idea.jpg

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Minicooper

posted on 8/2/08 at 09:49 PM Reply With Quote
how about one chain with a jackshaft? easier and lighter

Cheers
David

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dyli

posted on 9/2/08 at 07:19 AM Reply With Quote
do you have a pic of something like that?!

Next idea:

What ist with an front diff from a 4x4 car than a propshaft than the quaife gear another propshaft and then the engine

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dyli

posted on 9/2/08 at 07:30 AM Reply With Quote
will this work with this as reverse gear? Rescued attachment -258_QBE35G.jpg
Rescued attachment -258_QBE35G.jpg

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Minicooper

posted on 9/2/08 at 07:24 PM Reply With Quote
Hello Dyli,
Like this piccie shows, this uses a chain driven quaife diff that has an internal reverse built in

The Gold Quaife reverse box picture you posted is for use in inline prop shaft fitments, if your using a chain drive it's not suitable

Cheers
David Rescued attachment Smart Suzuki 3.jpg
Rescued attachment Smart Suzuki 3.jpg

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Alez

posted on 9/2/08 at 08:22 PM Reply With Quote
Sounds good Dyli, for some reason I thought the car was a lot heavier

quote:
Originally posted by jkarran
If you need mechanical reverse there's a couple of aftermarket options (not cheap), one is Quaife and I'm sure there's at least one other company making BEC reverse boxes/transaxels


Muffett does a very nice (but expensive) LSD diff with reverse:



Cheers,

Alex

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adithorp

posted on 10/2/08 at 05:21 PM Reply With Quote
Can't you just put a drive flange on in place of the sprocket and bolt a diff direct to this. Use either a 4x4 front diff or flip a rear diff' over. Mount the whole thing in a sub-frame and use a starter motor reverse on one of the drive shaft CV flanges. Then mount the whole assembly in the car in the same orientation as the original inline engine and gearbox.

adrian

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dyli

posted on 11/2/08 at 12:04 PM Reply With Quote
Hello, next week the engeneer from tüv comes to me to talk about the projekt!

So next question, what ist the ideal Engine for the Projekt?!
The car is for road use only, i want to go 0-60 miles under 5 sec. and top speed >100 miles...
what Engine is needet do bring up a car with 600-700KG to this speeds?

For the first time i will have an Carburator engine without the electric wireing stress...
Would an CBR1000F Engine from a SC 24, or ZX10/ZZR1100 be good for the car?

I think i will build it just like in the previous post
a diff and then the engine Inline just like the old original one...
so i can build a frame, for Engine and diff.,witch will be mounted to the original Gearbox mountingsfrom the car...
No cutting to the firewall, no drilling and welding to the Cars Frame!
Hope the tüv guy things the same...

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Gergely

posted on 11/2/08 at 04:52 PM Reply With Quote
I was just thinking... could you not put in the engine whatever way makes the TÜV man happy (in the back if it's easiest) and once the papers are ready, cut out the bottom and reposition the engine? If a policeman stops you on the street later they will only look at the papers and not check where the engine has been mounted, right? An will they know the rules? I don't think so...

As for the reverse, why not try an electric reverse? A starter motor driven by the battery. This should make TÜV man happy again.

I don't have my BEC yet, but the general consensus on this forum seems to be that injected engines are not harder to install than carb models at all.
And for engines (in sevens) the usual tips are R1, ZX12 and Hayabusa with the R1 being the most common out of these 3 and apparently the easiest to install. The later models give up to 170-180 bhp, that should be enough for your needs.

But as I said, I haven't started my build yet, only learned from here. If I am wrong, someone will correct me, soon.
Good luck, interesting project!
Gergely

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Matty Dog

posted on 2/4/08 at 03:16 AM Reply With Quote
I have a friend here in New Zealand who has a Fiat 850 Coupe with a Fiat 1438cc twic cam mated up to the original 850 gearbox. Despite the extra weight, he says it handles very well.

If I was repowering an 850, I would be inclined to use a Honda 1.6 VTEC motor (Aluminium, high-revving, good torque, cheap and common). Rescued attachment Nicks850a.JPG
Rescued attachment Nicks850a.JPG

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robertwa

posted on 2/4/08 at 03:09 PM Reply With Quote
Sounds like a great application for the Yamaha FJR1300. Shaft drive, spins the 'wrong' way for most BEC's, but mounted in the rear like you want and it will be spinning the correct way. Mount it transverse behind the rear axle and have a short driveshaft to the diff.
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