Get new key, put in car, tell computers to program key, go do an hour of paid work while the delay wears off. Take out key and bingo! Charge for an hours labour - again!
Grrrr
The thread on tintop keys started me thinking on the 'cute' things the manufacturers and main stealers have thought up to drop your pants
and give you a good financial caning.
Keys and key coding obviously.
Dual mass flywheels is another although that also comes under 'Solutions for problems that don't exist'.
Anyone else been shafted recently?
Split manifold, broken washer bottle motor and burnt wiring all on a car that has only just run out of warranty!
Except for the wash motor, i knew of no problems.
Coded components! My workmate is having to scrap a diesel Mondeo he bought a few weeks ago because it needs a set of injectors. He's already
spent over £200 just to find out what the possible problem is and even if he buys the set of recon injectors and has them coded to the car, at a cost
of £600, there's nothing to say that the injector pump hasn't started to fail which is sending debris to the injectors which has caused the
fault in the first place, which would be another £600. EBay is full of Mondeos with engine faults that due to the coding cannot be easily or cheaply
fixed.
The Mondeo in question is a 2002 diesel that cost £1200 to buy and another £200 to not fix. He's decided to cut his losses and put it on Ebay
with all the other poorly Mondeos and try to recoup a bit of money!
Best bit of bullshit I ever heard was when the radio on my tintop Nissan failed after six months due to a bad connection in the aerial. I took it to
be replaced under warranty, the mainstealer agreed to do it then when I went to collect it had the brass balls to say they wanted two hundred notes
because it hadn't failed it had been vandalised and that wasn't covered. When I pointed out that it didn't look vandalised they said
someone had bent it- not enough so that it was visable but enough to break it. I suggest that that was the biggest pile of BS I'd ever smelt but
they were determined.
They still insisted so I told them seeing as I hadn't authorised for the work to be done (they should have rung me as soon as they discovered it
wasn't done under warranty) I wasn't going to pay they could put it back as it was (they had done it by this time) and I'd take it up
with head office.
they told me to come back the next day and surprisingly it was waiting for me outside the main stealer office with the nice shiny new aerial still on
it.
I never took it further but should have- I'm sure they'd already put it through the books to the main dealer under warranty and fancied
skimming a couple of ton on top for the beer fund.
None of the things mentioned make the manufacturer any money (have to defend ourselves there!) - the dealer does benefit in terms of labour time, but
they've been doing that forever - I can think of much higher "return" items than dual mass flywheels (e.g. ooo sir let us flush your
cooling system for £100).
OEM's make SFA on part sales (there's just no margin in it).
Coded parts are definitely my biggest bug-bear. I understand why they need to do it, but the prices are NOT justified (on average it's something
like £25 for a 5 minute plug-in job). Especially getting the code for your radio from a dealer, where they just look it up on a computer system for
£40!!!
I've been quoted about £60 odd for a spare key for my 206. Iirc about £7 for the key part (the bit that goes in the lock) £30 for the coded part and about the same for the coding
Programming keys has to be a complete rip off.
Get new key, put in car, tell computers to program key, go do an hour of paid work while the delay wears off. Take out key and bingo! Charge for an
hours labour - again!
Grrrr
new one just around the corner
when fitting a new battery to certain cars it has to be coded into the car
quote:
Originally posted by PSpirine
None of the things mentioned make the manufacturer any money (have to defend ourselves there!) - the dealer does benefit in terms of labour time, but they've been doing that forever - I can think of much higher "return" items than dual mass flywheels (e.g. ooo sir let us flush your cooling system for £100).
OEM's make SFA on part sales (there's just no margin in it).
Coded parts are definitely my biggest bug-bear. I understand why they need to do it, but the prices are NOT justified (on average it's something like £25 for a 5 minute plug-in job). Especially getting the code for your radio from a dealer, where they just look it up on a computer system for £40!!!
I'm not suggesting the dealer's aren't making profit on the parts..
I simply said the MANUFACTURER does not make any significant margin on the sale of parts. Most will use Unipart or other company for the entire
distribution of spares, including packaging the parts. They add some cost to make profit, then they sell it to dealers at a rather low price who mark
it up to make their own profit.
Very rough example (prices/suppliers are purely hypothetical):
BMW Wishbone - production part cost from ZF Lemforder - £15
BMW sells parts to Caterpillar - £20
Caterpillar sells parts to BMW dealers - £35
BMW dealer sells part to customer - £60
The "profit" made by the actual OEM (BMW) in this case from the sale of replacement parts is negligible. It represents single digit
percentages of the cost of warranty for any given model line.
Warranty is a great money maker for dealers - they claim absolutely everything back from manufacturers.
(To re-iterate, I work for a manufacturer, in product development, which has nothing to do with the companies that own dealer networks)
quote:
Originally posted by Xtreme Kermit
Programming keys has to be a complete rip off.
Get new key, put in car, tell computers to program key, go do an hour of paid work while the delay wears off. Take out key and bingo! Charge for an hours labour - again!
Grrrr
I had a loud chattering from the AC compressor
and the local dealer told me I needed a new one.
£1060 all in.
Started reading up online to find the car has a
free wheel pulley on the comp and they do
occassionally start to slip.
They said that the comp is changed as a complete unit.
I rang the parts supplier which I believe is a wholly
owned subsiduary of the MD and the pulley was no problem.
Rang the MD back and asked why if its not changed
on its own why sell them.
Called me back with a revised quote at a fraction of the price.
Cant watch them.
Just this week I had to call toyota as the wing mirror glass and backing plate had come away from the mirror on the missus car.
the conversation went along the lines:
ME: can you give me a price for a NS wing mirror glass and backing plate for a Rav4
Thief: Sorry sir we dont supply the backing plate on its own. we can supply you a complete mirror and glass though
ME: ok how much would that be
Thief: £340.00 for the mirror and £72.00 for the glass
ME:......................................................(silence)..................................................then a bump as i hit the flooor
eventually got the mirror and plate on ebay for £42.00 inc delivery (still thought it a bit pricey)
I found a brilliant swiz.
The latest shaped Kangoo van has a single fuse box under the bonnet, cover held down with 2 torques screws.
The fusebox is then upside down below, to get it the right way up you have to disconnect the battery (10mm nut) disconnect the buzzbar to the fuse box
(13mm nut)
Gets you about 1" of slack, squeeze your fingers below and undo electrical multi plugs you've never seen before that have to be squeezed in
exactly the right way and place or they will not come off!
After priseing plastic clips with a flat blade screwdriver you can slide the fuse box out of its holder and turn it the right way up...
To find there's no fuse map or identification at all!!
So looks in the hand book "due to the complex procedure to access the fuse box, take it to your local dealer"!!!!
In France is it not law to carry spare a spare bulb and fuse set?
Presumably so they can be changed at the roadside...
quote:
Originally posted by MkIndy7
I found a brilliant swiz.
The latest shaped Kangoo van has a single fuse box under the bonnet, cover held down with 2 torques screws.
The fusebox is then upside down below, to get it the right way up you have to disconnect the battery (10mm nut) disconnect the buzzbar to the fuse box (13mm nut)
Gets you about 1" of slack, squeeze your fingers below and undo electrical multi plugs you've never seen before that have to be squeezed in exactly the right way and place or they will not come off!
After priseing plastic clips with a flat blade screwdriver you can slide the fuse box out of its holder and turn it the right way up...
To find there's no fuse map or identification at all!!
So looks in the hand book "due to the complex procedure to access the fuse box, take it to your local dealer"!!!!
In France is it not law to carry spare a spare bulb and fuse set?
Presumably so they can be changed at the roadside...
quote:
when fitting a new battery to certain cars it has to be coded into the car
quote:
Originally posted by owelly
Coded components! My workmate is having to scrap a diesel Mondeo he bought a few weeks ago because it needs a set of injectors. He's already spent over £200 just to find out what the possible problem is and even if he buys the set of recon injectors and has them coded to the car, at a cost of £600, there's nothing to say that the injector pump hasn't started to fail which is sending debris to the injectors which has caused the fault in the first place, which would be another £600. EBay is full of Mondeos with engine faults that due to the coding cannot be easily or cheaply fixed.
The Mondeo in question is a 2002 diesel that cost £1200 to buy and another £200 to not fix. He's decided to cut his losses and put it on Ebay with all the other poorly Mondeos and try to recoup a bit of money!
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
when fitting a new battery to certain cars it has to be coded into the car
What?!
I avoid main stealers for most things but I will be honest and say the parts are very often better quality than the cheapest possible online/factor parts. Recent example of this for me is brake discs. I have bought a succession of brake discs for my pug over the years, all of which ended up with scores, and corrosion on non-contact areas. Decent set of OEM kit cost the same as the pagids i was avoiding. Fitted the pagids and they've been perfect since.
What I think I'm saying is I don't mind their parts being a bit more pricey, but I do mind their tendency to do poor work and work that's not required.
Dual mass flywheels have a reason for being, as much as 4 pot brakes and paddle shift gears.
bear with me, this is a long, but good one..............................
took my 2002 Golf TDI to a stealer a few years back after it suddenly lost power / drive and started idling lumpy coming off the slip road on a
dual.
trip to the local VW stealer the following morning to be hooked up to the computer, result was "your dual mass flywheel has gone sir"
me: how much?
dealer: well, with a new clutch and thrust bearing, approx £900...............do you want us to repair it?
me: obviously, as its virtually undrivable, I'll be back in 2 days to pick it up
2 days later calls in to pick up car..........
dealer: changed clutch, DM flywheel and bearing and its still got the fault
me: obviously it was'nt that then was it
dealer: we think its the timing belt, slipped a tooth.............
me: WTF, how much is that?
dealer: £175 to change belt, and reset
me: do that and put the old clutch and flywheel back as I wont be paying the £900
dealer: we can't do that, as the clutch has been binned
me: its up to you but I'm not paying the £900
dealer: we'll see if we can find the clutch...........
funny thing, they could'nt find the clutch or DM flywheel to show me, but managed to find a suitable "used" one to
replace..........checked the gearbox bolts after and it was never disturbed!!!! the car is still on the original clutch 60K miles later !!!!
2 days later, I'm back at the dealer ready to pick up the newly belted, newly timed Golf, but am met by the same blank expression on the service
manager's face........................so it continues
dealer: the problem is still there, the mechanic has started to strip the head and you need 4 x new injectors at £300+vat each!!!
me: so how much to change injectors, rebuild head etc......................?
dealer approx................£2500
me: STOP!!!!!!....................step away from the car, put all the bits in a cardboard box, and trailer it back to my house, I'll fix it
myself. I paid £75 for the computer hook up..........
so all in all, if they'd had thier way they'd have me take it up the rear end for the princely sum of nearly
£5GRAND!!!!!..................and they were still nowhere near the root cause
Bit of googling when I got it home, took the rocker cover off and noticed the cam on #1 cylinder had eaten its bucket, a complete 2nd hand head and a
few days of oily finger nails, for £300 and she's still going strong at 180,000 miles
main stealers, don't you just love em
[Edited on 10/11/12 by clanger]
THAT is what worries me, they never seem to have a clue (IME, I'm sure many do) and still like to charge £85 an hour. A bit of common sense and a bit of thought and you can almost always fix things yourself cheaper, better and more confidently. I genuinely feel sorry for folk who don't have the kit to do the work themselves.
I find most 'mechanics' are not much more than 'component fitters'. Ask them why they've fitted a new cat to cure a misfire and they just point at the diagnostics machine. Ask them why they then had to fit a new MAF sensor, then new TPS, and new injectors, yet the misfire is still there, another clean finger pointing at a diag machine. In my day, when men were men, pansies were flowers, sheep were scared and the internet was in black and white, you proved a part faulty BEFORE you replaced it!
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
They have a DMF but I have never heard of one on a Rover failing.
quote:
you proved a part faulty BEFORE you replaced it
quote:
Originally posted by UncleFista
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
They have a DMF but I have never heard of one on a Rover failing.
Mine has, but not in the classic way.
The ring gear is worn on mine, starter doesn't engage every now and again, needs a bump in gear.
The replacement I have lined up was £20 on eBay, kind of proves your point, reliable means cheap 2nd hand
quote:
The ring gear is worn on mine, starter doesn't engage every now and again, needs a bump in gear.
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
French electrics !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Definitely worn teeth, all are worn but 2 teeth are more worn than others.
I've ground down the mating flange on a spare starter so it throws the gear out further and it's useable now 
I'll do the clutch and flywheel when I need to, it just seems a pity to change the whole thing when the clutch is fine.
I've seen a clutch change on another diesel 75 and found out you only need to drop the subframe down on one side, fiddly but less work.
quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
Dual mass flywheels is another although that also comes under 'Solutions for problems that don't exist'.
quote:
Originally posted by UncleFista
Definitely worn teeth, all are worn but 2 teeth are more worn than others.
I've ground down the mating flange on a spare starter so it throws the gear out further and it's useable now
I'll do the clutch and flywheel when I need to, it just seems a pity to change the whole thing when the clutch is fine.
I've seen a clutch change on another diesel 75 and found out you only need to drop the subframe down on one side, fiddly but less work.
quote:
Originally posted by MikeRJ
quote:
Originally posted by Dusty
Dual mass flywheels is another although that also comes under 'Solutions for problems that don't exist'.
This is not correct, dual mass flywheels were developed to solve some very real problems that modern high performance 4 cylinder diesels have brought with them. Manufacturers simply wouldn't fit such an expensive component if they didn't believe it was needed.
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Trouble is they are also fitting them to petrol engines.
The real ball breaker Airbag, SRS and ABS faults can't be read by normal code readers and these can be very difficult faults to pin down. I
spent a couple of weeks trying to pin down an SRS fault that turned out to a water logged side impact sensor.
There is no reason why a fault code reader can't built into the vehicle it would cost a couple of quid instead the EU demands tyre
pressure sensors that can only escalate the cost of motoring.
quote:
Originally posted by britishtridentThere is no reason why a fault code reader can't built into the vehicle it would cost a couple of quid instead the EU demands tyre pressure sensors that can only escalate the cost of motoring.
quote:
Originally posted by bi22le
quote:
Originally posted by PSpirine
None of the things mentioned make the manufacturer any money (have to defend ourselves there!) - the dealer does benefit in terms of labour time, but they've been doing that forever - I can think of much higher "return" items than dual mass flywheels (e.g. ooo sir let us flush your cooling system for £100).
OEM's make SFA on part sales (there's just no margin in it).
Coded parts are definitely my biggest bug-bear. I understand why they need to do it, but the prices are NOT justified (on average it's something like £25 for a 5 minute plug-in job). Especially getting the code for your radio from a dealer, where they just look it up on a computer system for £40!!!
I respect your position and industry knowledge but I would like to challange the "OEM's make SFA on part sales (there's just no margin in it)" comment.
Give me one example of something that is the same cost to buy from a Stealer than it is to buy EXACTLY the same part from online. Dont use overheads as an excuse. I could also walk into a shop and get EXACTLY the same part at a greatly reduced rate.
Wipers - Nope!
Batteries - Nope!
Oil Filters - Nope!
Engine parts - Nope!
bulbs - Nope!
Wheels - Nope!
Tires - Nope!
Brakes - Nope!
Every single item, service and part WILL cost you more at a stealer.
I'd love to see how much Audi charge for a dipped beam bulb an an a5 as I've just done one and the bulb was £65 trade