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4x4 donor..are all going to be heavy set ups
w.olly - 4/3/12 at 12:09 PM

Hi folks, i was looking into a ford V6 4x4 build, but as its going to be a bit on the heavy side i will give it a miss, thats if i ever get to start the build. So what other 4x4 donors can you suggest, A V engine would be nice if there is such thing as a light weight set up, but mainly a 4x4 is concern for my build.

IIRC there was a ford 1.8 4x4, or was it a 2.0?

I know there will be more weight with a 4x4 with the more running gear but i dont think it will be that much........or will it?

I did wonder of an MR2 donor to give a lively rear engine kit, i see they are cheap nowadays for the MK2, so if the 4x4 is a no go in the end i mite go MR2, but who does chassis plans for them?


W,olly

PSpirine - 4/3/12 at 12:39 PM

Subaru would be my choice.. a legacy or n/a impreza can be picked up for £300 - manual gearbox, nice flat boxer four engine and 4wd.

w.olly - 4/3/12 at 01:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by PSpirine
Subaru would be my choice.. a legacy or n/a impreza can be picked up for £300 - manual gearbox, nice flat boxer four engine and 4wd.



OOoo, never thought of them, but why the N/A, i guess i would need to highly mod a locost chassis, even a haynes.

batteredoldsupersport - 4/3/12 at 01:17 PM

A mate drives a Golf 4x4, I think it's a 2.8, either V5 or V6. He likes it, having spent years in a Subaru he's a x4 convert

NigeEss - 4/3/12 at 01:24 PM

Being a Boxer the Scooby lump is too wide for a Locost type chassis.

w.olly - 4/3/12 at 01:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by batteredoldsupersport
A mate drives a Golf 4x4, I think it's a 2.8, either V5 or V6. He likes it, having spent years in a Subaru he's a x4 convert


I just the love feel driving a 4x4, the reason to build a 4x4 locost. Is there any certain cars to avoid to use as a donor?

[Edited on 4/3/12 by w.olly]

NigeEss - 4/3/12 at 01:41 PM

Also bear in mind that most 4x4 cars have transverse engines, again too wide for a Sevenesque
application.
They would fit a mid-engine layout but getting the drive to the front would need some serious
thought.

Two bike engines as per the Tiger Z100WR maybe ?

Dave Ashurst - 4/3/12 at 02:03 PM

...also bear in mind that in a Subaru transmission system the engine overhangs the line of the front axle. Being a boxer the scooby engine is quite short and so isn't too much of an overhang.

The front wheels are driven from half shafts plugged directly into either side of the gearbox, rear of the clutch. That would be a challenge in a car that wants its engine sited behind the front wheels. (Esp if you used a longer engine.)

PSpirine - 4/3/12 at 02:13 PM

Didn't realise this was for a Seven type chassis!

Yes, subaru layout doesn't lend itself nicely to a Locost/Haynes etc.

If going for a locost type car, the sierra 4x4 running gear would be a good start. You could swap the engine out for a Suzuki engine and gearbox out of a Jimny (1.3, and interchangeable with swift GTI lumps I believe). The Jimny gearbox and transfer case aren't too heavy from what I understand and will have an output for the Ford's front diff.

No idea on gearing or physical size though!

Dave Ashurst - 4/3/12 at 02:25 PM

I don't think it is a 7-type necessarily.

bi22le - 4/3/12 at 02:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by batteredoldsupersport
A mate drives a Golf 4x4, I think it's a 2.8, either V5 or V6. He likes it, having spent years in a Subaru he's a x4 convert


Was also my first thought when you said a V 4X4 drivetrain. There were limited Escort RS2000 4X4 (Mk4 style) but I love fords and would hate to think of a nice sample being gutted for its running gear.

Going down the VAG route you also have Audi Quottros, TT, A3, A4 . . . .

plentywahalla - 4/3/12 at 03:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by NigeEss
Also bear in mind that most 4x4 cars have transverse engines, again too wide for a Sevenesque
application.
They would fit a mid-engine layout but getting the drive to the front would need some serious
thought.

Two bike engines as per the Tiger Z100WR maybe ?


It certainly used to be that twin engined set-ups were only road legal if they were geared together and drove through the same transmission.

I used to have an ex-army 'Twini Moke' that came from the mod auctions at Ruddington. It was not legal on the road unless one engine was immobilised.

I don't know if laws have been changed since. I know various hybrid drives are effectively twin engined, but they are 2 wheel drive through the same transmission. You are presumably trying to achieve a 4WD arrangement.

coozer - 4/3/12 at 03:36 PM

Mate of mine has a Cossie powered 4x4 Dax that goes like the preverbal of a shiny shovel...

NigeEss - 4/3/12 at 03:42 PM

quote:
Originally posted by plentywahalla

It certainly used to be that twin engined set-ups were only road legal if they were geared together and drove through the same transmission.

I used to have an ex-army 'Twini Moke' that came from the mod auctions at Ruddington. It was not legal on the road unless one engine was immobilised.

I don't know if laws have been changed since. I know various hybrid drives are effectively twin engined, but they are 2 wheel drive through the same transmission. You are presumably trying to achieve a 4WD arrangement.



Well the Z100WR that Tiff Needell drove on Top Gear is indeed road legal and each engine has it's own transmission and diff.

JoelP - 4/3/12 at 04:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by NigeEss
quote:
Originally posted by plentywahalla

It certainly used to be that twin engined set-ups were only road legal if they were geared together and drove through the same transmission.

I used to have an ex-army 'Twini Moke' that came from the mod auctions at Ruddington. It was not legal on the road unless one engine was immobilised.

I don't know if laws have been changed since. I know various hybrid drives are effectively twin engined, but they are 2 wheel drive through the same transmission. You are presumably trying to achieve a 4WD arrangement.



Well the Z100WR that Tiff Needell drove on Top Gear is indeed road legal and each engine has it's own transmission and diff.


Are you sure? I though that one had a box to link both drives and was RWD.

w.olly - 4/3/12 at 05:18 PM

Looks like i will be sticking to the standard MX5 and such, i have been looking at half built ones but then its on my mind how its well its been built, and then its the first big cash layout when i would be happier to spend and build as i go..........i will decide one day

Confused but excited. - 4/3/12 at 05:36 PM

My youngest had a Sierra XR4x4i that went like hell.
The little bugger sold it before I could get dibs on it.
It was a 2ltr straight four and would have been mental in a seven chassis.

w.olly - 4/3/12 at 06:08 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Confused but excited.
My youngest had a Sierra XR4x4i that went like hell.
The little bugger sold it before I could get dibs on it.
It was a 2ltr straight four and would have been mental in a seven chassis.


I knew they did something like that, my mate had one years ago, but it was a sapphire, it went like stink as was, if i could get one of them that would be the job

ali f27 - 4/3/12 at 06:53 PM

Hi purdy built 1 from sierra 2.0 4x4 we put 2.3 in it out of scorpio got 200 bhp without to much trouble worked really well and not as hard as you think

MikeRJ - 4/3/12 at 07:32 PM

quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
quote:
Originally posted by NigeEss
quote:
Originally posted by plentywahalla

It certainly used to be that twin engined set-ups were only road legal if they were geared together and drove through the same transmission.

I used to have an ex-army 'Twini Moke' that came from the mod auctions at Ruddington. It was not legal on the road unless one engine was immobilised.

I don't know if laws have been changed since. I know various hybrid drives are effectively twin engined, but they are 2 wheel drive through the same transmission. You are presumably trying to achieve a 4WD arrangement.



Well the Z100WR that Tiff Needell drove on Top Gear is indeed road legal and each engine has it's own transmission and diff.


Are you sure? I though that one had a box to link both drives and was RWD.


Pretty sure he's right as Tiff Needell blew it up when one box changed gear and the other didn't. Russ Bost's Furore passed SVA with twin bike engines, one driving each rear wheel.

I've heard this story about twin engined cars a few times and no one has ever been able to point to any legislation so I believe it is simply one of those old wives' tales that refuses to die.

[Edited on 4/3/12 by MikeRJ]

Liam - 6/3/12 at 08:15 PM

The Tiger Z100 had two engines with outputs combined and RWD. The Z100WR had the front engine pointing the other way driving the front wheels through an upside-down Sierra rear diff for 4WD. You can tell them apart fairly easily as the 4WD with engines pointing opposite directions ends up with an exhaust manifold either side, whereas the 2WD has both engines pointing the same way and two full exhausts on the NS.


As for the OP, if you want to do something Seven shaped and 4WD you really dont have much choice other than the Ford running gear as you need the seperate front propshaft and diff so you can locate the engine and box independantly of the location of both axles. The extra weight (which includes heavier gearbox containing the centre diff, front prop, front diff and front driveshafts) is about 55 kg or so, so not too bad. You can use whatever engine you like if you are prepared to adapt it to the Ford gearbox. I certainly wouldn't recommend using the old Ford Cologne boat anchor unless maybe it was a 24V cossie. I'm using a Honda V6, although that will most probably change - my project has been mothballed for a good few years whilst other things are going on in my life and I'm currently in Norway for the forseable future. But when I resume I'm going to have more spare cash so I want to change a few things and do it right first time rather than cheap. First to be upgraded will be that old Honda V6 out of a Rover.

Have a look in my photo archive, and if you have any questions regarding making a 4WD give me a shout. A few others on here can help too, I'm sure.

[Edited on 6/3/12 by Liam]

NigeEss - 6/3/12 at 08:58 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Liam
The Tiger Z100 had two engines with outputs combined and RWD. The Z100WR had the front engine pointing the other way driving the front wheels through an upside-down Sierra rear diff for 4WD. You can tell them apart fairly easily as the 4WD with engines pointing opposite directions ends up with an exhaust manifold either side, whereas the 2WD has both engines pointing the same way and two full exhausts on the NS.



Spot on Liam.

The only thing that physically links the Z100WR is the gear levers which can be locked together but generally are left
separate.

w.olly - 1/4/12 at 02:57 PM

Well, i have not put this off yet, i have a look at your Pics Liam, very nice build mate, impressed, now i will be going with the Ford Colonge route, but the 24v cossie as you suggest, i just think they are a great engine and have ran a few in the past, i ahve been looking at sierra donors, plenty of 1.6 and 1.8 etc about but not many 4x4, but still around at a fair price, £600ish for a scrapper, i wouldnt cut up a decent one, dont wnat to upset anyone by doing that

Liam, what chassis planes did you use if any, or what did you modify for the 4x4.

Another Q for anyone, is there any adaptors for a Ford G box to take a rover V8?????


Cheers

wolly

[Edited on 1/4/12 by w.olly]

w.olly - 8/4/12 at 02:10 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Confused but excited.
My youngest had a Sierra XR4x4i that went like hell.
The little bugger sold it before I could get dibs on it.
It was a 2ltr straight four and would have been mental in a seven chassis.


What gear box did these run?

I am still on with this ford 4x4 donor idea and a 24V V6 cossie engine, if i am going to do this i mite aswell do it how i would like the first time, may take longer to build with the mods needed to whicj ever chassis i decide to build, but it will be worth it

Just cleaned out my work shop area, X aviary, not much room but looking forward to this build, sick of messing with rust on cars with the off roading lark.

bj928 - 8/4/12 at 02:52 PM

if your going 24v cosworth u will need a 2.9 4x4 sierra, the older 2.8 4x4's had the type 9 4x4 box, the 2.9 had the MT75 box, u will need a v6 box as the bellhousings are not removable to change from a straght4 bellhousing, i have stuffed the 24v into loads of different vehicles and they are a great engine, but the type 9's don't last very long so go MT75

w.olly - 8/4/12 at 03:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by bj928
if your going 24v cosworth u will need a 2.9 4x4 sierra, the older 2.8 4x4's had the type 9 4x4 box, the 2.9 had the MT75 box, u will need a v6 box as the bellhousings are not removable to change from a straght4 bellhousing, i have stuffed the 24v into loads of different vehicles and they are a great engine, but the type 9's don't last very long so go MT75


Thanks for that kida, i get this thinking from my 4x4 off road days, but i know also of the type 9 G/box being weaker than the MT75, but with the car being so lite si this still so a bad G/box for a Locost.

I will be getting a complete ford 4x4 donor and getting a granada 24v to swap with, as the MT75 are like gold dust and when found they are mad money, the 2.9i 4x4 will be big money towards the 2.8 4x4 when got complete, well thats how i see it....?

Thanks for help mate


wolly

matt_gsxr - 8/4/12 at 04:09 PM

There was a fiat panda 4x4, can't have weighed much.

What about bmw 330xi that was 4x4 (okay not available in RHD so not many in UK, but) various suppliers of kits for BMW parts.

w.olly - 8/4/12 at 04:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by matt_gsxr
There was a fiat panda 4x4, can't have weighed much.

What about bmw 330xi that was 4x4 (okay not available in RHD so not many in UK, but) various suppliers of kits for BMW parts.


One thing missing there though for me the V

w.olly - 8/4/12 at 04:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by w.olly
quote:
Originally posted by bj928
if your going 24v cosworth u will need a 2.9 4x4 sierra, the older 2.8 4x4's had the type 9 4x4 box, the 2.9 had the MT75 box, u will need a v6 box as the bellhousings are not removable to change from a straght4 bellhousing, i have stuffed the 24v into loads of different vehicles and they are a great engine, but the type 9's don't last very long so go MT75


Thanks for that kida, i get this thinking from my 4x4 off road days, but i know also of the type 9 G/box being weaker than the MT75, but with the car being so lite si this still so a bad G/box for a Locost.

I will be getting a complete ford 4x4 donor and getting a granada 24v to swap with, as the MT75 are like gold dust and when found they are mad money, the 2.9i 4x4 will be big money towards the 2.8 4x4 when got complete, well thats how i see it....?

Thanks for help mate


wolly



Sorry getting mixed up, its the RWD MT75 thats hens teeth.

bj928 - 8/4/12 at 04:31 PM

few bits found with a quick search


Sierra XR4x4 2.9i 1989 Grey Breaking for Spares | eBay

sierra 2.9 - 4x4 engine and box cradle complete | eBay


SIERRA V6 4X4 MT75 GEARBOX XR4X4 2.9 12V 24V COSWORTH | eBay

w.olly - 8/4/12 at 04:49 PM

I found them also mate, i have been mooching

I would rather get a runner so then atleast i know i will get something half decent, i think LOL.

I had a few V6 colonge engines a year or so ago, both superb engines, but daft sod sold them, even had the MT75 4x4 box, sods law init.

Another thing is that i want a full acr so its easyer on the IVA and reg etc etc.

Real Looking forward to this, i know a lot will say it will be another unfinished build in a year or so, but i will enjoy trying mate

popstar - 26/6/12 at 09:29 PM

hi all i am getting a 7 chassis soon and have swapped ma mondao for a sierra with a 2.9 v6 (nice) picking up the topic it will be goining in ma 7 with the 4x4 drive system but whats the heavy bit sorry if i sound stupid but taking a v6 lump from a ford siera wieghing 1200 kg and a bit with standard 150ish BHP (but will be pimpt abit) and putting it in a chassis with wheels wieghing in at 550-650kg is a massive boost what am i missing sorry again for bieng bit nieve if you like

also any help with build would be great

chillis - 26/6/12 at 09:43 PM

Best 4x4 set up for a roadster type car would be twin bike engine, I seem to remember Tiger did one a while back and Tiff Needell drove it (and blew it up) on fifth gear. V quick and super light but I suspect not cheap.