nitram38
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 10:43 AM |
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R1 clutch question
I have changed my clutch to a Barnet on an 05 engine.
I am about to set up my willwood clutch slave cylinder. The pull travel on the wilwood appears to be around 25mm and about the same on the clutch
lever.
Now I know the clutch was originally for a hand grip, but how easy should the clutch lever operate?
I can feel the internal cog rotating when I move the lever but should it be so easy to move by hand?
Is 25mm travel enough or is there a bit more at the end of the travel? (I don't want to force it)
Cheers Martin
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tks
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 11:08 AM |
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the easyest way to be able to tell something about what you say is to
look up in the hayness how much diameter has your orignal piston(master).
then haveing the wilwood one you can easyly calculate. my clutch MC has 11mm diameter and the travel is needed.
sow i think your wilwood clutch thing isn't apropiate for a bike clutch.
best bet is to use a bike rearbrake master cilinder (incl. the reservoir)
should be able to mount that behind a pedal.
Tks
p.s. it will work with your wilwood.
but you will need to push with more force and you will have less travel.
==> less feeling.
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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nitram38
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 11:15 AM |
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The willwood is a pull cylinder matched to a wilwood clutch cylinder.
The R1 is a cable type pull clutch originally.
I just want to find out if the clutch lever on the clutch basket is supposed to move so easily and wether 25mm is the extent of it's travel.
I can easily move pivot points on the lever to give me a different travel to match the slave cylinder.
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tks
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 11:19 AM |
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normally a bike clutch hardly can me moved by hand! sorry i thought that your R1 was hydro.
and that you matched up to a R1 slave clutch.
take in mind that if you actuate the clutch you are compressing the clutch springs!
sow its deff not easy possible by hand.
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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tks
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 11:20 AM |
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anyway you can test it!
select a high gear and try to turn the sprocket while pulling in clutch and or loosing it..
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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nitram38
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 11:26 AM |
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My fear is that either I haven't engaged the clutch properly when I put the cover on or that the first 25mm is free play and that it needs to be
pulled that bit more.
I really need some answers from someone who has already done this.
I can't run the engine as I am building the chassis, but I want to weld my clutch slave mount on.
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tks
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 11:42 AM |
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it will depend on the force needed does it return to org pos with that loose stroke???
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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nitram38
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 11:45 AM |
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It has a spring so returns back to it's original position.
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nitram38
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 11:50 AM |
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Just found the manual, it says that there is 10-15mm free play at the clutch pull grip end. This could be the 25mm on the clutch housing end?
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tks
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 11:52 AM |
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in my thoughts what should return the lever is also the clutch basket springs...
sow if it feels like only the small lkever spring does its work it deff could be a lose strok.
wy you don't attach a cable or something?
with a big/long bolt and a nut you can easyly make a puller
make a picture of the situation in rest pos and if you pull on the lever until you cant anymore...
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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nitram38
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 12:04 PM |
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No cable etc and I don't want to pull so much that I sh*g the clutch out.
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tks
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 12:20 PM |
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i don't say that you need to pull the chit out..
you! just need to have a idea how much you are pulling...and if it works while doing sow.
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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nitram38
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 01:13 PM |
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Right I took a chance and used a set of mole grips on it.
The drawing shows the start postion and then the 25mm of free play.
Beyond the free play, I can feel the spring tension through the mole grips.
Is it ok that the lever is about 85 degrees from it's original starting position when it comes to a stop?
According to the manual the lever returns to the correct alignment marks at rest.
If all of this is correct, how much of the free play can I take up so that my slave cylinder operates within the last part of the travel?
I was thinking of compressing the wilwood pull slave at it's maximum and moving the lever to it's furthest travel before mounting it, so
that on release it will fall somewhere in the free play area.
This will also mean that it is impossible to retract the slave beyond the maximum clutch travel.
Good Idea?
[img][/img]
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nitram38
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 01:28 PM |
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Propose wilwood set up with lever returning to free play area:
[img][/img]
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tks
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 01:46 PM |
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yeah!
thats what i wanted to try...to enter the zone of the clutch springs...
beaware that you need a special clutch slave cilinder. you can use a normal one but than you need to push the lever and not pull of it.
if you are gonna pull like you draw make sure that the angle in rest is lower then 90degrees. it will make it easyer for the piston to pull once it
has moved a bit.
the spring force is progressive, the first couple degrees wont be a problem. sow i would mount it at max. 85degrees.
for maximum clutch performance you need 0,000mm compression/force on the spings.
sow if you take up the slack/lose movement you are done. Watch out that its dangerous to overpull that lever!!!!! sow beaware that you need a (pedal)
stop etc..
ideally i would use some threaded bar with a nut then you can easyly mount and adjust the freeplay.
best bet is to mount the system already bleeded in that way you can directly test.
does the lever allign up to the marks then your fitment is perfect.
Tks
p.s. if the rest pos is within the freeplay your first travel of your clutch will be useless.
also the working will be doubtfull because the small spring will return the liquid slowly.
sow ideally at rest you are 1mm in the free zone. once in the "working" zone the clutch springs will return the liquid/piston to their
positions/places....
p.s.2
if you cant get an angle like i told i think best thing is to test the setup with some kind of bracket/grips/clamps setup.
because a very heavy clutch pedal isn't what you want.
[Edited on 23/7/07 by tks]
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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nitram38
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 01:52 PM |
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If I mount the slave so that it is fully compressed when the clutch is at it's maximum, then a stop on the clutch pedal will not be required.
The slave will not be able to pull on the clutch lever beyond it's fully compressed state.
The beauty of the wilwood cylinder is that it will return quickly because it has an internal spring and pulls instead of pushes.
I t fits nicely in the same plain as the original cable. The only thing I have to do is put a 6mm thread on the push rod to fit a female 6mm rod
end.
The clevis pin holding the cable clevis has been ground off just leaving a 6mm hole for the rod end.
I'll post some pictures when it is done!
[Edited on 23/7/2007 by nitram38]
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tks
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 02:04 PM |
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Thats true but!
1)How do you know that at your found max pos the clutch was totally disengaged!
(i jacked the car up to test this in first gear with engine on)
2)When at rest in the freeplay zone the force required is very very low!Sow your pedal will feel very weak until you reach the pulling zone.
3)The spring at the lever is there, but its not very powerfull result will be that if you push clutchfast it won't have returned yet totally
(the pedal)
4)If you mount the lever/setup at rest pos it will start working directly when pushing the pedal this is normally what you want.
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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nitram38
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 02:11 PM |
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I know what you are saying about removing most of the free play, but is this a good idea?
Having next to no free play to start with will also mean a very short pedal as well (with a stop).
Is your pedal like an on/off switch or is it still progressive?
[Edited on 23/7/2007 by nitram38]
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tks
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 02:25 PM |
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The pedal can be adjusted by mounting the MC cilinder bar closer to the turning point
You will make the travel longer or shorter, sow thats not a problem.
basicly its just a region on the clutch within the clutch slips thats the pull of region...
once car has speed you just drop clutch totally and adds throttle..
in my idea what you want is 1mm freeplay to be sure that if you loose pedal clutch is totally unpowered/unpressed. not more, not less. i would mount
it up with some clamps etc..
Beaware that the angle is important.
else you need to press the crap out of your pedal and that doesn't improve the resolution/sensitiveness. sow half way the movement of the lever
i would say 90degrees at 90degrees the power has highest effeciency..if the angle opens >90 its goes bad really fast! (as you see in your pic it
looks like you want to rip off the lever)
you just need to be able to undo the springs in steps of 0,25mm then you generally can manage it perfectly. to be able to do that its just a cuestion
of not needing to press to hard on your pedal, then it becomes easyer to deal with that.
Just do it! it will be fine!
Tks
[Edited on 23/7/07 by tks]
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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adithorp
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 04:11 PM |
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Yes, the first bit (25mm) is free play on mine. Make sure you allow for wear though as the free play will be taken up by that I think (bike clutches
not really my thing).
Adrian
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ChrisGamlin
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 04:41 PM |
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Can you not guage it from looking at the original cable pull mounting bracket on the engine end where the cable outer would sit into? Usually the
clutch engagement lever will be near 90 degrees to where the cable would sit when the slack is taken up before engaging
i.e
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o===O Lever Arm
It should then engage from that point on.
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nitram38
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 05:47 PM |
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Guys it is now sussed!
The total travel of the lever is 35mm.
25mm is free play and 10mm the springs move in the clutch.
My wilwood pull slave cylinder's travel is 32mm.
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tks
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| posted on 23/7/07 at 05:59 PM |
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do what every you think is right.
but IMHO you should tune it to be at the last 10mm in rest. sow you limit that piston to only be able to move (easy to do with the pedal travel)
also the lever moves 10mm your springs only move 2-3mm
Tks
The above comments are always meant to be from the above persons perspective.
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