pathfinder
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 posted on 26/2/06 at 06:06 PM |
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Braided brake line question
Evening all,
Can I use self made braided brake lines (screw together type) or do they have to be crimped on to pass SVA? If they do need to be the latter does
anyone no of a good supplier? I’m after longer front and bake hoses that can connect straight to the t pieces instead of using short lengths of
copper pipe (is there any reason why this should not be done? I like the idea for aesthetics and simplicity).
I have searched the boards but not come to a definitive answer!
Cheers chaps
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RazMan
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| posted on 26/2/06 at 06:30 PM |
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Goodrich will supply all the neccessary bits & pieces but will also make up any hoses to your measurements. Some of the connectors are just
bolt-up jobbies too so no special tools required.
I have done exactly as you describe - braided hose from the calipers to the tee joints. I have gone one stage further and used them all the way down
the tunnel too - for both brakes and clutch. It makes life a lot easier and as the hoses are encased in plastic there is no chance of chafing. You can
just use cable ties to secure them too.
[Edited on 26-2-06 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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pathfinder
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| posted on 26/2/06 at 06:44 PM |
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I was thinking making the full system out of braided but didn’t want to mention it as some people on here get a little argumentative over the
subject!
RazMan have u passed sva with these hoses fitted? Are yours bolt on or crimped style? Any idea of cost for doing the complete system?
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RazMan
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| posted on 26/2/06 at 07:03 PM |
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Apart from being a bit on the expensive side I can't see any reasons against braided hoses. Mine were a tad over £100 but that included the tee
pieces and brake switch. It saves a LOT of installation time though and looks much neater.
My hoses are mostly crimped but the Wilwood calipers needed straight connectors which meant I cut off the banjos and just nipped up the straight ones
with a spanner - sorted.
I havent gone through SVA yet but I know of three other cars that have passed with an identical setup.
[Edited on 26-2-06 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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ch1ll1
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| posted on 26/2/06 at 08:23 PM |
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HI ALL
not sure if this will happen but i spoke to
a mate of mine (mot)
AND HE SAYS THERE IS OR THEY ARE TRYING to stop braided brake hoses
they are trying to get a new category
classing this as modified and may need another sva (but as most people on here do that anyway it may not be too much of a problem !)
he was just checking up on specs for me for things
i.e brake line locks and stuff.
he says they are trying to stop boy racers
modding there cars (as we all know most of there work isnt upto mot standards anyway, most not all that is
but then he said it may not happen
so who knows
[Edited on 26/2/06 by ch1ll1]
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RazMan
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| posted on 26/2/06 at 08:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by ch1ll1
HE SAYS THERE IS OR THEY ARE TRYING to stop braided brake hoses
Interesting - but why? Are they deemed as inferior to solid pipes? Personally I think they are safer due to the fact they are completely flexible and
can not fracture. There are also potentally less joints in the system too so less likely to leak.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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ch1ll1
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| posted on 26/2/06 at 08:45 PM |
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you cannot see the cracks or if the brake lines are expanding, ( then they can spilt )
but he says it might not happen
but they are looking at classing cars different.
we may get away with it as kit cars are in a class of there own if you know what i mean
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tim windmill
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| posted on 26/2/06 at 08:48 PM |
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had to change the fittings on my flexi hoses and put some screw on type fittings to accept banjo bolts for calipers.
supplied by rally design excellent service next day delivery and a good price.had my previous car pass the sva with same hoses so if nothing has
changed i think they should still be ok for ths one
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ch1ll1
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| posted on 26/2/06 at 08:52 PM |
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i think they are just getting the mot testers to tell vosa and the police who has what on there cars and what they have done to it !
could have something to do with insurance as well !
cause then they will know if you have messed with your car the insurance will be void !!
that's what he told me !
make sense if you think about it ( for them not us )
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mnr laptop
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| posted on 26/2/06 at 11:10 PM |
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by running all braided hose throughout you run the risk of a spongey pedal, best to have hard lines as mush as possible
as an alternative to copper hard lines how about alloy lines ( plastic coated ) flares the same as copper but is much nicer to look at and a lot
lighter and will be cheaper than all braided can also get it in 10mm for fuel lines etc
best regards
marc
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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mnr laptop
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| posted on 26/2/06 at 11:13 PM |
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re sva
i have been asked before to give proof of suitabilty and construction, so i took a fitting to show them that the union was sleeved and fitted with an
olive and they where perfectly happy, although i have heard of people reporting no complience for sva ????, depends which station / tester i
suppose
best regards
marc
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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RazMan
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| posted on 26/2/06 at 11:19 PM |
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I would have thought that Goodrich hoses are proved to be reliable and high quality. They have a good name in the industry. If the tester can see the
words 'Goodrich' printed on the hoses every 200mm then he isn't going to question their suitability. I can understand that 'Mr
Wong' might raise a few eyebrows and questions regarding their quality would be asked.
As far as spongy pedal syndrome goes - no worries, I have been using Goodrich hoses for 20 odd years and havent had a problem yet.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
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mnr laptop
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| posted on 26/2/06 at 11:25 PM |
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re sva
should have been clearer, its the compression self assembly fittings they query, not the hose it self or the braided hoses that are crimp terminated,
re spongeyness probably not likely on these type of cars, never tried personally but a very real problem on larger caliper / mc combinations found in
gt / touring cars which i have experianced, hence the suggestion of the alloy pipe, fogot to add you can also get alloy anodised fittings to
compliment the pipe including t -pieces
best regards
marc
[Edited on 26/2/06 by mnr laptop]
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NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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02GF74
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| posted on 28/2/06 at 04:40 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by mnr laptop
by running all braided hose throughout you run the risk of a spongey pedal, best to have hard lines as mush as possible
I would have said that but not so sure. Came across a technical doc. by Goodrige comparing them to rubber lines and they are superior in every way,
no surprises reeally. They also list expansion and it was minimal NB this is not comparing against solid pipe.
Personally I'd use pipe as I cannot really see there is any advantage going for braided; plus pipe is lighter(?) and cheaper.
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procomp
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| posted on 28/2/06 at 07:50 PM |
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Hi running braided hoses throughout there is know problem with sva even with self assembely ones. Certanaly dont give a spongy pedal. cost wise its
the end fittings that cost the monney as the pipe isnt that expensive . And never had a problem doing it this way in 20 years.
cheers matt
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britishtrident
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| posted on 28/2/06 at 09:08 PM |
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One important point that everybody misses --
You can't clamp braided hoses to stop fluid loss/air entering when working on one corner of the car --- fluid loss = bleeding the full
circuit or system = time lost.
As for how much they reduce spongeyness the answer is very little -- in my experience less that 2%.
As for using Copper for main brake lines that has been well covered before --- use Kunifer
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britishtrident
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| posted on 28/2/06 at 09:11 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by RazMan
I would have thought that Goodrich hoses are proved to be reliable and high quality. They have a good name in the industry. If the tester can see the
words 'Goodrich' printed on the hoses every 200mm then he isn't going to question their suitability. I can understand that 'Mr
Wong' might raise a few eyebrows and questions regarding their quality would be asked.
As far as spongy pedal syndrome goes - no worries, I have been using Goodrich hoses for 20 odd years and havent had a problem yet.
The only defective new flexy hose I have ever found was a Goodrich --- problem was the end fitting hadn't been drilled through which caused
no end of head scratching when it came to bleeding.
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David Jenkins
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| posted on 28/2/06 at 10:11 PM |
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I read somewhere (ThinkAuto catalogue?) that the reason why braided hoses were a problem was due to the fact that eventually the braiding breaks and
can pierce the teflon liner. They are perfectly OK for racing as they would get inspected/replaced frequently. Very few brands have been legally
approved for regular road use because they may not survive many thousands of road miles (20k or 50k) due the problem described above - ordinary rubber
hoses are 'fit and forget' for ordinary users, even if they are inferior for brake feel.
If you disagree - don't shout at me - I'm only quoting (badly).
rgds,
David
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NS Dev
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| posted on 28/2/06 at 11:27 PM |
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You're dead right, that is indeed what Think Automotive say, but probably not a worry on our cars really mileage wise.
I've used them for over 20,000 miles on a road rally/everyday road car and never had any issues, and that was home-assembled reuseable ended
ones.
They make a MASSIVE difference to pedal travel, for example on a 205 GTI that we replaced the hoses on, (we changed the fluid prior to changing them
as well for some daft reason, so it wasn't crap fluid) the travel was reduced from 3 to 3.5" at the pedal to approx 1.5" travel.
Thats the sponginess caused by 6 rubber hoses in the system.
The stainless/teflon lines that I have used have just taken huge abuse and come back for more every time.........except for one problem! Dont EVER
weld anywhere NEAR them!!!!
Spatter will stick to the stainless if it touches it, and the affected strands will snap under pressure and the hose will burst...............we had
it happen on the mid engined Nova rally car and by pure fortune it happened in the service area after we had re-tack welded on the trip-meter pickup
mount on the hub after it got knocked off by a big stone.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
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Canada EH!
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| posted on 1/3/06 at 03:29 PM |
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Braided Brake line question
I see pictures of copper brake lines in (THE BOOK), In Canada and I believe in the US steel is the only brake line allowed for road going cars.
Aircraft use aluminium lines. The braided lines are fine as flex hoses from chassis to moving suspension parts, and in some cases axle to caliper on
live rear axles. The dips in the braided lines between mountings may hold contaminents as well as water. My 66 Corvette liked to store water in the
bottoms of the rear calipers.
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britishtrident
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| posted on 1/3/06 at 09:18 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Canada EH!
I see pictures of copper brake lines in (THE BOOK), In Canada and I believe in the US steel is the only brake line allowed for road going cars.
Aircraft use aluminium lines. The braided lines are fine as flex hoses from chassis to moving suspension parts, and in some cases axle to caliper on
live rear axles. The dips in the braided lines between mountings may hold contaminents as well as water. My 66 Corvette liked to store water in the
bottoms of the rear calipers.
Water pockets should only a problem with DOT5 (silicone) brake fluid, with conventional fluid (Dot3, Dot4 or Dot5.1) the water is absorbed by all the
fluid in the system.
DOT5 fluids are great for classic cars that are rarely used but for a performance application a conventional fluid changed regularly is best.
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