RazMan
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 11:16 AM |
|
|
Strange Brake Problem
After fitting my new rear brakes I decided to splash out on an Eezibleed kit to finish the job. The job was really fast when compared to the old
fashioned method and I was finished in under 10 minutes.
Initially the pedal felt nice & firm so I went out for a 'bedding in' session. On the way back I noticed that the pedal could be
pushed to the floor with gentle pressure!! 
It feels as if the master cylinders have both failed - a sharp stab on the pedal gives a firm feel but a gentle push goes to the floor.
Have I just blown my m/c seals with the Eezibleed? I used 20 psi as recommended and at that pressure I had a nice steady flow of fluid through the
bleed tube.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
|
|
Peteff
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 11:30 AM |
|
|
We used one on an Astra.
It inverted the M/C seals, very similar to what you describe. You can do the same thing by forcing the pads back without undoing the bleed nipple
apparently.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
|
|
|
JAG
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 11:33 AM |
|
|
I would suggest that you simply didn't get all the air out of the system.
What calipers do you have fitted to the rear?
Most of the rear calipers with an integrated handbrake mechanism are notoriuosly difficult to bleed completely.
Justin
Who is this super hero? Sarge? ...No.
Rosemary, the telephone operator? ...No.
Penry, the mild-mannered janitor? ...Could be!
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 11:43 AM |
|
|
I don't think the problem can be air as the pedal doesn't feel spongy and repeated stabs don't make it any firmer. If I push the
pedal really gently you can feel the pressure give way and the pedal goes to the floor without much resistance at all.
btw - The new rear calipers are Powerlites but the handbrake actuator is so simple (basically it just squeezes the pads together with a cable) that I
doubt if it would make any difference at all, as it is not an internal mechanism. The m/c are bog standard brand new Girling jobbies
Pete - I must admit your answer sounds the most likely. Inverted seals argggghhh I only fitted new m/c last month too - they are a bugger to get to in
my car 
[Edited on 15-5-07 by RazMan]
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
JAG
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 12:26 PM |
|
|
I have to disagree.
The Eazibleed can't produce enough pressure to trouble a master cylinder that's designed to generate around 725-1450psi (50-100bar)
hydraulic pressure.
You may have a slight leak past the recuperation valve in the master cylinder but 'inverted seals' is highly unlikely (sorry Peteff).
Justin
Who is this super hero? Sarge? ...No.
Rosemary, the telephone operator? ...No.
Penry, the mild-mannered janitor? ...Could be!
|
|
|
Peteff
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 12:34 PM |
|
|
'inverted seals' is highly unlikely (sorry Peteff).
Just telling him what happened with our Astra, no problem with your opinion but this actually happened.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 12:49 PM |
|
|
Ok then, before I start buying seal repair kits I think I will try going back to the old fashioned way and see if I get any more air out with
SWMBO's foot. 
It is strange how it is appears to affected BOTH master cylinders though.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
Phil.J
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 01:13 PM |
|
|
If you disconnect the brake pipes from the master cylinder and replace them with bleed nipples, bleed out the air, and this cures it then the problem
lies beyond the master cylinder. Obviously if you still have the problem then it must be master cylinder related.
|
|
|
russbost
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 01:55 PM |
|
|
Would agree with Phil J, that is the simplest way to confirm - might be worth a bleed first - you are absolutely certain nothing is leaking? I was in
the garage trade for 20+ years, used an eazibleed for around half that time, never caused a problem even on old knackered vehicles - 20 psi
can't damage anything in your braking system IMHO
I no longer run Furore Products or Furore Cars Ltd, but would still highly recommend them for Acewell dashes, projector headlights, dominator
headlights, indicators, mirrors etc, best prices in the UK! Take a look at http://www.furoreproducts.co.uk/ or find more parts on Ebay, user names
furoreltd & furoreproducts, discounts available for LCB users.
Don't forget Stainless Steel Braided brake hoses, made to your exact requirements in any of around 16 colours.
http://shop.ebay.co.uk/furoreproducts/m.html?_dmd=1&_ipg=50&_sop=12&_rdc=1
|
NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 02:43 PM |
|
|
Thanks for all the ideas guys.
I will have a go at bleeding the system again first, then if the problem isn't solved I'll do the bleed nipple on the m/c trick (cunning
that  ) and see what happens.
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 02:54 PM |
|
|
Sounds like a fluid leak to me, go round every joint that could have been disturbed with somebody pumping the pedal on-off-on-off--on dry every
joint first and use a good strong torch/inspection lamp to examine each joint carefully.
It could be a recuperating seal problem but it is odd it happened in both circuits. This type of problem would show up as the fluid level rising in
the resevoir 2 or 3 mm as the pedal is pushed down.
The way to be a 100% sure it is not a mastercylinder problem is to disconnect the pipes to each circuit at the mastercylinder and replace them with
bleed nipples.
If it is a mastercylinder problem it can't be anything do with eazi-bleed -- might however be down on contamination in the fluid.
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 02:59 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
Just telling him what happened with our Astra, no problem with your opinion but this actually happened.
This is a very known problem with Astras as they put on miles and it seems to apply even if you pump the pedal to bleed. A lot of garages warn
Vauxhall owners about this before they will look at the brakes. How GM have been allowed get away without doing a safety recall on this is a mystery.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
britishtrident
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 03:03 PM |
|
|
As to the arrr "handbrake mechanism" --- emporers new clothes.
[I] “ What use our work, Bennet, if we cannot care for those we love? .”
― From BBC TV/Amazon's Ripper Street.
[/I]
|
|
|
rusty nuts
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 05:28 PM |
|
|
Have to agree with B.T Astra master cylinders need no excuse to fail, known them to fail when fitting new pads on more than one occasion. Doubt very
much if easibleed would cause problems , I use a Sykes pressure bleeder all the time with no problems which works on the same principle.
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 15/5/07 at 05:31 PM |
|
|
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
As to the arrr "handbrake mechanism" --- emporers new clothes.
Eh? As far as I know the Wilwood Powerlites are about the only 4 pot handbrake caliper. The mechanism is rather crude .... but it appears to work.
Update: I have just given them a good bleed with the help of SWMBO's heavy right foot and it appears to have solved the problem for the time
being. I'm really puzzled as there was no air in the system and I got some good strong surges through each caliper - used a whole 250ml doing
it.
The fluid leak is another possibilty but it must be tiny if there is one - I will give it a few da7ys and see how it goes anyway.
Thanks again guys
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
Schrodinger
|
| posted on 16/5/07 at 11:22 AM |
|
|
Not trying to teach people to suck eggs etc, but have you got the pipe, bleed nipple connected to the correct place on the calippers? Bleed nipple in
the top hole pipe in the bottom. I've seen this the wrong way round a number of times causing air locks.
Keith
Aviemore
|
|
|
RazMan
|
| posted on 16/5/07 at 11:36 AM |
|
|
No problem there as the Powerlite have nipples top & bottom - much easier than the std Sierra jobbies which needed to be removed for bleeding.
One thing I didn't know (Rally Design told me this) Always bleed the inner nipples first, then the outer. It apparently prevents air getting
trapped in the caliper.
Just come back from a short run and everything is still hunk dory so it must have been trapped air after all, although I am now a little sceptical
about the Eezibleed ...... but it might be a coincidence that traditional blleding solved the problem
Cheers,
Raz
When thinking outside the box doesn't work any more, it's time to build a new box
|
|
|
NS Dev
|
| posted on 16/5/07 at 06:52 PM |
|
|
Glad its sorted Raz.
I have had the same problem before but not got as far as driving it. I have ended up having to pump anything up to a litre through to fully clear the
rear lines before, on a rally car with nothing special about the rear brakes.
What normally happens is a lug of air flows back up the rear line(s) while caliper is off, then when you start to bleed, its trapped somewhere in the
middle, so you get air out first, then fluid, and you think its bled, but there is still the lump of air in the line.
Retro RWD is the way forward...........automotive fabrication, car restoration, sheetmetal work, engine conversion
retro car restoration and tuning
|
|
|
.jpg)
