Nick Davison
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| posted on 4/3/23 at 11:11 AM |
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Italian Lunacy - Just bragging now I have finished
Just turned this:-
[img] [/img]
Into this:-
[img] [/img]
It was a Lancia Thema 2.0l ie turbo engine but now is an 8v Integrale. The increase in HP is minimal but it can now be chipped to 250hp without any
more mods and 300hp with a couple more changes. Now it is 185hp as stock.
It needed a complete engine loom and ECU change plus loads of hardware (and a new crank as I spun the last one!).
I am now completely up to speed with all things 8v electrical and could successfully bore the pants of anyone daft enough to listen!! I would consider
it as therapy after a traumatic experience!!
My advice for anyone looking to fit one of these or similar into a 7 is of course DON'T! But if anyone is daft enough to try I will help where I
can.
Cheers
Nick
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BenB
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| posted on 4/3/23 at 01:35 PM |
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Blimey! Bet you had to use a few crow bars to get that to fit!!!!
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Nick Davison
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| posted on 4/3/23 at 06:34 PM |
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Just a bit, there is a cubic foot under and round the throttle where everything is located and you can't see any of it!
But it goes like hell
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pewe
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| posted on 6/3/23 at 10:07 AM |
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Nice install.
I put a Beta Volumex engine into mine so know what you must have encountered along the way, not least in turning the lump from East/West to
North/South.
If you don't already know it keep an eye on the turbo to sump oil return pipe.
Over time it cooks the rubber, goes brittle then fractures and if your at motoway speeds the first you know is when the engine starts clattering - ask
me how I know!
Having said that I ran my first 8 valve Thema turbo up to 160k miles without a problem, it happened on the next 16v one which did slightly more miles
before going bang.
BTW did you use a Fiat 124 gearbox?
Cheers, Pewe
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Nick Davison
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| posted on 6/3/23 at 12:42 PM |
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Hi Pewe
They are good engines but have to be kept an eye on. This one has been rebored with Forged pistons and everything measured to an inch of its life so
apart from cyclic fatigue the clock has been turned back on the destruction part of its life. The turbo I am expecting to have to replace at some
time, I have another that needs refurb so will look at working that up in preparation.
The orientation was awkward, I used a 5 spd Miafury 131 gearbox which is good for up to about 250hp so in such a light car should be able to handle
the torque. The bolt pattern of the bell housing is identical however the fiat starter fits on the wrong side just where the balance shaft is. So I
had to cut and shut a new starter motor housing in it on the engine inlet side which wasn't that difficult in the end.
The sump was the difficult bit as the engine is now upright rater than inclined at 22deg. The first flat winged sump had a bit of a rubbish oil
pickup which ultimately failed and starved the crank of oil, hence the motor change. This one was designed and made by a chap that has lots of
experience in racing cars and bikes so should work ok. One real problem with the winged sump was it was nearly impossible to remove with the engine
installed as the wings hid the bolts. The new one has no wings.
Nick
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Nick Davison
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| posted on 6/3/23 at 12:42 PM |
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Hi Pewe
They are good engines but have to be kept an eye on. This one has been rebored with Forged pistons and everything measured to an inch of its life so
apart from cyclic fatigue the clock has been turned back on the destruction part of its life. The turbo I am expecting to have to replace at some
time, I have another that needs refurb so will look at working that up in preparation.
The orientation was awkward, I used a 5 spd Miafury 131 gearbox which is good for up to about 250hp so in such a light car should be able to handle
the torque. The bolt pattern of the bell housing is identical however the fiat starter fits on the wrong side just where the balance shaft is. So I
had to cut and shut a new starter motor housing in it on the engine inlet side which wasn't that difficult in the end.
The sump was the difficult bit as the engine is now upright rater than inclined at 22deg. The first flat winged sump had a bit of a rubbish oil
pickup which ultimately failed and starved the crank of oil, hence the motor change. This one was designed and made by a chap that has lots of
experience in racing cars and bikes so should work ok. One real problem with the winged sump was it was nearly impossible to remove with the engine
installed as the wings hid the bolts. The new one has no wings.
Nick
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pewe
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| posted on 6/3/23 at 05:15 PM |
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Nick, knew a thing or two about twin cam engines did Lampredi.
I used the stock sump but added extra baffles and a windage tray plus a Fiat 131 oil pump from memory.
One thing I did do was alter the cambox drains when going from 21(?) degree cant to vertical.
That involved boring drain holes lower on one side so the cambox didn't flood.
On my Lancia 2 litre carburated, twin cam 8 valve I did have the flywheel lightened though I doubt your turbo will need that.
If not already aware of him Guy Croft is/was the guru on Fiat Lancia twin cam engines. I don't know if he's still operating - may have
retired.
There's also Keith at Auto Integrale, Beenham near Reading who has been around those engines for years.
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Nick Davison
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| posted on 7/3/23 at 01:44 PM |
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Pewe
I considered drilling the exhaust cam box drain but it didn't seem to have a particularly detrimental effect although I don't take it to
extreme rpm and I'm not plagued from leaks.
My new sump has a new windage tray too, there is limited space in the modded sump and the tray is very close to the throw of the crank so it may not
be fantastic at high rpm or oil flow all depending of how fast the oil drains away from it and if the crank ends up splashing it about too much. As I
have only just finished the car I haven't had an opportunity to do any serious testing so may find out either way when I do.
A lightened flywheel would be great and provide a faster engine acceleration, perhaps if I chip the ecu I'll do the flywheel as well. I did pop
over to see Guy when I first built the car with the Thema engine, he lived about 15 miles from here and was very helpful when I first built the
engine, his book is great. His knowledge of Fiat and Lancia has set the benchmark for tuning the engines. I drew on his technical knowledge/history
of turbos with Garrett when I was doing a crash investigation on a development UAV that had a turbo failure on take off. Sadly he died a few years
ago but his knowledge is still floating about and being used by loads of tuners. His web site is still open but not accepting any more contributors
to the forum I believe, also his wife is still offering his book either electronically or in print.
Thanks for the steer to Auto Integrale, I haven't talked to them but they look like another good source. I have mainly use Tanc Barrett in
Shropshire who has got me out of many sticking points with knowledge and parts.
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Nick Davison
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| posted on 7/3/23 at 01:50 PM |
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Pewe, Just had another look at your F27 installation, that is very tight but you have done very well to get the block so low, impressive. What power
were you running? I guess it must have been a similar max to that achievable with a turbo although the torque curve must have been more linear?
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pewe
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| posted on 8/3/23 at 10:45 AM |
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Nick, I didn't have the car dynoed. Originally they quoted a modest 155bhp but of course that was the cooking version which they then used tuned
up in the Lancia 037 rally cars, eventually transferring similar set up to the Integrales where they S4 used both turbo and supercharging to give
North of 400bhp.
I suspect mine was slightly more than the cooking version given it has a 4 branch exhaust and bigger carb.
Is your engine is 8 or 16 valve?
Back in the day I ran both 8 and 16 valve Turbo Themas as my company cars.
Build quality was questionable but the engines were peaches.
The 8 valve had a lorry size turbo which didn't really kick in until about 4k revs at which point it felt like you'd lit the blue touch
paper.
It made for interesting exits from islands when the turbo and subsequent torque steer kicked in!
The cam-box drain mod was a Guy Croft suggestion, especiallly when I told him I would be using the car for track-days.
I did contemplate fitting an LSD but decided against as it didn't provide sufficient gains.
In fact I discovered not long ago that a Torsen (as fitted to my supercharged hairdressrs) isnt ideal if used on a skid-pan where it is constantly
emits the teeth jangling metallic noises. Interestingly a mate's Nissan 340(?)Z made much the same noises as mine.
Apparently you can't have it all ways.
I guess yours will be an exciting package.
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Nick Davison
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| posted on 8/3/23 at 04:48 PM |
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So yours must have been kicking out a similar BHP to my old Thema engine at 165 which was loads of fun and very useable in the dry, rubbish in the wet
though. Yep it was an 8V, the boost kicked in at about 3.5k with lots of acceleration which was fun in 3rd when overtaking, nearly motorcycle speeds.
The integrale conversion gives it 177bhp as it is the Kat ECU running max 0.8bar boost but can be easily chipped to loads more.
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pewe
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| posted on 8/3/23 at 05:50 PM |
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IIRC the 8 valve had a kick-down over-boost which allowed the turbo to build pressure for an extra 30secs - great foe overtaking!!
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