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Where to buy twin pack paint
MK9R - 16/12/09 at 08:53 AM

Need, thinners, hardner, etch coat, primer and top coat "in hurt your eyes orange" etc, any suggestions on a good supplier?

snakebelly - 16/12/09 at 09:57 AM

Your not far from me i use Bitec in Telford or Jawel Paints by post, Jawel do custom cans so i also ge them to do me an aerosol whenever i order paint so i have a touch up can from the same mix.

http://www.bitec.co.uk/
http://www.jawel.co.uk/

hth

Steve G - 16/12/09 at 10:56 AM

Unless you have the proper facilities - air fed mask etc then personally i'd stick to 1K paint myself. Just not worth the risk of poisoning yourself or more importantly others by using an isocyanate based paint.

MK9R - 16/12/09 at 11:03 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Steve G
Unless you have the proper facilities - air fed mask etc then personally i'd stick to 1K paint myself. Just not worth the risk of poisoning yourself or more importantly others by using an isocyanate based paint.


Got all this after doing a boat a few years ago

mad-butcher - 16/12/09 at 06:33 PM

From any good carbody paint shop, autopaint international.
As I've said before 2 pack as an automotive paint has been outlawed by the EU because of it's ingredients, My local paint shop will mix any colour for you but will point you at their disclaimer on the wall, Unable to supply 2 pack paints for automotive trade use, ideal for doors, shelving and cabinets... imo the biggest load of Bollocks the EU have come up with for a long while

austin man - 16/12/09 at 06:48 PM

Auto paint international have a few outlets. You can also buy of the bay of e

boggle - 16/12/09 at 06:48 PM

2k paint is bettr than cellulose and waterbased imho.....it is not good on the lungs thou, and cyanide poisoning is horrid...had it myself.....

but what does my nut in is that 2k is being outlawed but water base needs 2k lacquer????

look on ebay for 2k commercial paint......

Mark Allanson - 16/12/09 at 09:50 PM

Read my posts, you really shouldn't be using 2k

Brommers - 16/12/09 at 11:55 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
Read my posts, you really shouldn't be using 2k


Although your posts on that thread are factually inaccurate in a number of respects. Not least claiming that isocyanates are stable compounds, when in fact they react with water (and water vapour) to produce CO2.

I've got an air-fed mask on a separate compressor and spray in a well-ventilated workshop which has a powerful output fan that dumps the air into a large open field full of bunny rabbits. I'm quite happy spraying 2K in there, and the bunnies don't seem to mind either.

A blanket 'don't use 2K paints' is unrealistic and unhelpful IMHO. Know the risks, use the proper equipment.

Mark Allanson - 17/12/09 at 06:49 PM

I think you had better list the number of inaccuracies and prove them.

The only type of isocyanate that I know of that reacts with water is methyl isocyanate which is the basis of weed killers.

You seem to have the correct equipment to protect you, but 'dumping' your discharge into a large field is just irresponsible and illegal. I pay over £500 a month on filters to trap any particulate or vapour contaminants. Any crops grown in that field for years to come will be contaminated.

MikeR - 17/12/09 at 08:36 PM

In an attempt to try and stop arguments - If I recall correctly Mark runs a body shop and does this professionally (and I hope legally) for a living.

On the grounds I suspect doing it illegally would mean large fines and potentially jail & going over the top would affect the bottom line / cost him money. I suspect he's doing something just above the legal minimum to be safe.

(ok, perhaps a little above minimum due to losing friends).

I'd therefore be tempted to trust he knows what he's doing.

Brommers - 18/12/09 at 08:46 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson

The only type of isocyanate that I know of that reacts with water is methyl isocyanate which is the basis of weed killers.


All isocyanates react with water. That's what the isocyante R-NCO grouping does by virtue of the double oxygen bond onto the carbon atom. If it doesn't react with water, isn't not an isocyanate.

For example, here is a study on the effects of catalysts on reactions between water and aliphatic isocyanates.

All isocyanate groups by their very nature will react with water to form urea-based (amine) compounds. Which are about as toxic as urine - i.e. not much.

The basic reaction is clearly set out here.

As to your suggestion that isocyanates are carcinogenic, that's still very much an open question and the jury's still out on that one.

Cured 2K paint is certainly not carcinogenic, so if uncured paint lands on Little Jimmy's clothes, provided he doesn't develop a serious clothes-sniffing habit within 10 minutes of the spraying, Little Jimmy will be fine.

I could go on, but I've got work to do...

[Edited on 18/12/09 by Brommers]

Mark Allanson - 18/12/09 at 10:06 PM

Sorry, my mistake, 2k is fine. safe and healthy, use it as much as you like, where ever you like. I just cannot understand why it is illigal to use.

Brommers - 19/12/09 at 03:32 PM

A response which is equally as irrational as your earlier post.

2K paint is nasty stuff, and anyone who's thinking of using it needs to know the risks, understand them, and take the appropriate precautions.

However, to suggest that anyone using it is thereby contaminating everything around them for ever and ever, killing of every living thing for miles around is simply not true.

I'm not saying, and never had said 2K paint isn't dangerous. However, I'd rather that other people had the facts and were allowed to make up their own mind rather than being fed ill-informed horror stories and told not to ask questions.

Mark Allanson - 19/12/09 at 05:12 PM

28 years in a bodyshop environment, last 16 a manager - ill informed - I don't think so

Brommers - 19/12/09 at 07:33 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mark Allanson
28 years in a bodyshop environment, last 16 a manager - ill informed - I don't think so


If you think isocyanates are stable compounds then I'm afraid you are. No matter how many years you've spent in a bodyshop, it isn't going to change the chemical nature of an isocyanate group, which is inherently reactive. Of course, if you've got scientific rather than apocryphal evidence which contradicts the scientific papers I've referred to in my post, I'd be delighted to see them.

Mark Allanson - 19/12/09 at 09:12 PM

This is going no where so this will be my last post on the matter.

Isocyanates are clearly VERY stable or they wouldn't be used to coat car bodies, the un catalysed properties may be unstable, but you don't paint with just one part of the system.

You are clearly very intelligent and highly educated, and I cannot resolve those characteristics with what you are promoting, the discharge of isocyanates into your local environment.

Many people don't realise that if you buzz down a panel painted with 2k several years after application, the isocyante is still as dangerous as the day it was applied, don't bother saying this isn't so because the HSE insist that we spent £15k on equipment to collect thse contaminants before they can be inhaled by our employees, of anyone living close enough to be at risk.

The atomised paint that you inadvertantly release into the atmosphere will carry on its curing reaction after it has settles on you next door neighbours home grown vegetables with potentially terrible results.

If you didn't hide behind a forum name, and disguise you location I would report you to your local authority - You could explain to them how safe and harmless the amateur use of 2k really is.

I appologise to everyone (including Brommers) for being an old miserygut about this, but several amongst you know the reason why - people really do die due to the ill considered use of 2k

Read this post.

I leave it now to other members of the forum to discuss the use of 2k, when there are safe(ish) alternatives which are just as easy to use, and no more expensive.

Brommers - 20/12/09 at 02:18 AM

Fair enough - if you don't want to actually deal with any of the points I've made but instead to make baseless threats then that's your call. Although I notice you haven't actually produced any proof that anything I've said is incorrect.


quote:

Many people don't realise that if you buzz down a panel painted with 2k several years after application, the isocyante is still as dangerous as the day it was applied, don't bother saying this isn't so because the HSE insist that we spent £15k on equipment to collect thse contaminants before they can be inhaled by our employees, of anyone living close enough to be at risk.


In that case, you'd better ring the New Zealand Department of Labour's Health and Safety Department and let them know they've got it all wrong. I'm afraid I couldn't find the equivalent passage in the HSE guidelines (although I've seen them before when I was researching the safety of 2k paints myself). They say

quote:

If you are sanding down a vehicle previously painted with isocyanate-containing paints, there is no isocyanate hazard. This is because the old paint is fully cured and contains no free isocyanate.


Full text available here.

But hey, what do they know? I mean, they're only experts.

And finally on the point (unless you actually produce something to back up your claims to the contrary) 2k paints cannot by definition retain any free isocyanates once they're cured. They cure by the isocyanates reacting to form polurethane polymers. If they had free isocyanates left, they'd never cure. But hey, that's just chemistry, so we can ignore that huh and just work on apocryphal scare stories.

MK9R - 20/12/09 at 01:08 PM

thanks for the posts, i'll try not drink it

Brommers - 22/12/09 at 09:09 PM

Good plan Austen, I'll try not to sniff it!

See you at Snett in March '10...

boggle - 22/12/09 at 09:36 PM

this is quite interesting stuff....

i worked for 5 years in body shops and have my own sideline buisness doing smart repairs and alloy wheel refurbishment..(when im not waterjetting)

i now use waterbased for my repairs and 1k lacquer but when i do my own paint work i use solvent base and 2k lacquer....

i have painted several times without a mask and it has not helped me in anyway, you can still snot up the colour for days after...h+s is getting more stringent on paint spraying, and for a good reason...too many have abused the guidlines on solvent based products....

bottom line is if you dont know what you are doing go to a paint shop and pay....you are gonna save your health and the enviroment in the long run.....