Probably a question for Mark Allanson
What type of paint and primer could I use for both GRP and ally to give me the best results assuming that all H & S issues are covered?
Also which paint will be the easiest to apply and obtain a good finish with?
Nick
[Edited on 19/9/03 by Nick Davison]
I used a cellulose primer and top coat on my nosecone because it's easier to fix if you cock it up, but it was o.k. first time. Aluminium needs
acid etch primer to key to it as the paint tends to crack and flake if it's not used. Just been reading something similar in the chassis section
I think.
yours, Pete.
What Pete says is the easiest, Cellulose is the cheapest way to go, Two pack will give ya better adhesion though, dont forget the etch primer on the
ally though or yer wasting yer time.
Shug
You MUST use an etch primer first, I am going to use 2K because I can!
You have a choice of cellulose or synthetic
Cellulose is REALLY easy to use and repair if you have a little mistake in the paint, dries quickly, is very forgiving in varied conditions of
temperature and humidity.
Synthetic (known as sticky in the trade) is faily easy to use, it can be used hot or thinned. It takes ages to dry so there is more chance of getting
flies, small children stuck to the car as it dries. It needs a full cure time before you can nib out any mistakes (about 3 months from memory to be
safe), and can only be overpainted with synthetic or it will pickle up and look like an MG dashboard. Once applied it is VERY tough, has an amazing
shine straight from the gun and about 1 litre would finish a locost with enough to spare to re do a few panels if you are not happy with them, and it
is cheap.
Personally if I was painting at home I would chose sticky because it will never peel off, microblister if the GRP was slightly damp when painted. I
would buy 2 litres to make sure I had enough to repaint the car if required (the colour matching of synthetic is not good)
Mark,
Is synthetic also known as "knacker laquer?" or 1 pack?
Neil
Never heard the phrase 'knacker lacquer', but is also known as 1k, as is cellulose
mark
I think you have referred to 1k as acrylic in the past....?
If so, is this the same stuff thats in spray cans?
atb
steve
1K means one part paint - as opposed to any paint which required a catalyst/accelerator/hardener. The 'K' bit is kumpfbanstumfer in german
or some other word that sounds like a kraut being sick.
I forgot to mention earlier, NEVER use synthetic metallic, it looks totally crap, evil to put on right - the metallic particals can 'shear',
that is even if you don't get a run in the paint, the ally bits will run and form rivers or curtains of silver
Would that be the Max Factor Knacker Lacquer that gives your cluster that added lustre
.
On the paint, I've used the 1 pack in the past and if you do need to do patch repairs it doesn't feather out same as cellulose but you
only need to polish it, not cut and polish. Get some good top coat thinners for the cellulose, not too fast, and you can get a decent finish straight
from the gun. Also avoid the truckcoat range, Maxmeyer I think, as it goes dull after a couple of years. O.k. on a fleet of Transits but not on your
pride and joy.
yours, Pete.
quote:Pete,
Originally posted by Peteff
Would that be the Max Factor Knacker Lacquer that gives your cluster that added lustre
DON'T use any thinners with synthetic other than the thinners recomended by the manufacturer, Celly thinners will break down the paint chemically and you will end up spraying fragmented pigment and broken down binders.
The spares shop that my wife drives for does PPG now and I've been using that (because of the discount). Their high flash celly thinner is a fair bit dearer than the base coat and primer thinner. The label says nitro thinner and it really does make life easier, keeps a good wet edge with the gravity gun I tend to use these days. I keep looking at the HVLP versions but I don't do enough to justify the price. One day though.
Mark
Synthetic sounds good but if it takes such a long time to dry, with the inevitable problem of dust and flies etc sticking to it and having to wait
such a long time before any remedial action can be carried out, isn't it going to be a problem to use and get a good finish in a home workshop,
which is probably not as clean as could be? I take it that the H & S precautions don't need to be as severe as with 2K and well within the
scope of the home user.
If I wanted to use 2 pack what would I have to do to ensure the H & S is covered and what additional equipment would I need?
Also what is the SP with Polyurethane paint?
This is a bit of a voyage of discovery at the moment for me so I want to look at all the possibilities good and bad.
Nick
[Edited on 22/9/03 by Nick Davison]
when I sprayed my metro, I lined the whole of may garage - roof and floor included - with thick pvc sheeting - the damp proof course grade, not the
thin sandwich bag stuff!
It keeps all the dust and crap down. If you spray in the spring, moist air and bugs will be minimised and help the finish.
Im tending to think I might go 1k. Im concerned with how cellulose might react with the gelcoat on my car.
atb
steve
[Edited on 22/9/03 by stephen_gusterson]
Steve did you have any air extraction for the dust from the overspray?
Nick
Steve,
You're right about celly and GRP, the thinners are very agressive and can damage the gel coat if not properly isolated.
In a home garage, air extraction will suck all the dust from the entire neibourhood onto your car!
Mark.
You told me that about celly, so I cant pretend to be the expert!
No, 8 years ago when I sprayed it I didnt use anything but a simple mask. But im still here and had 112% lung efficency in a test 2 months ago.
Im not risking it next time. I have one of those expensive 25 quid charcoal masks which I hope will do the trick.
Failing that, rig up some kinda air feed from outside to a similar mask.
atb
steve
Your body can breakdown cellulose over a period of time (organic origins), synthetic although not poisonous will line your lungs and never break
down., 2K ..enough said.
If you rig up an air fed mask, don't supply it from a piston compressor, small amounts of oil are passed into the air and these will be almost as
bad as synthetic.
If you spray synthetic, remember the overspray will still be wet (celly overspray is just dust) so it will coat anything it lands on - usually next
doors car!
There are so many issues with spray painting, just make sure you have all the angles covered
I had thought about the compressor thing - originally I tried to use one of those electric tyre ones when I did the metro. Provides about enough air
for a hampster!
atb
steve
You could use a reverse flow vacuum cleaner.
It'd give good pressure behind a mask to stop anything coming in, and oilless!!
Just make sure you emptied the bag first, and make sure it has a clean air supply!!
Probably be better to use an old hairdrier, that way you could have slightly warmed air blown through, which'd be nice if it's a bit
chilly
ATB
Simon
[Edited on 23/9/03 by Simon]
what about an air compressor with colasing filter etc.
I used one at a workshop when I did a bit of work for a friend painting plant machinery. It ran off the compressor line through its own regulator and
filter which clipped to your belt. It was a full face perspex visor and I think the filter was an activated charcoal one. You didn't even smell
the paint till you took the mask off.
yours, Pete.
my 25 quid, twin cartridge, charcoal filter mask is like that,,,,,you cant smell a thing.
atb
steve
quote:
Originally posted by Peteff
I used one at a workshop when I did a bit of work for a friend painting plant machinery. It ran off the compressor line through its own regulator and filter which clipped to your belt. It was a full face perspex visor and I think the filter was an activated charcoal one. You didn't even smell the paint till you took the mask off.
yours, Pete.
A I see it ther is:
1. Cellulose
2. Synthetic - 1K
3. 2 Pack - 2K
1 & 2 are ok to use a home 2 giving a better finish but taking longer to dry, 1 being easy but not such a good finish.
3 easy to use and provides a good finish but bad on the H & S front.(So what is so bad with 2 pack?)
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Nick
[Edited on 24/9/03 by Nick Davison]
Isocyanate is the catalist for it (Cyanide).
This stuff is lethal. It can be breathed in or absorbed through the skin and attacks the central nervous system of your body.
You could take all the precautions and wear an air fed mask, but the spray dust has to go somewhere and if vented outside without the proper filters
can contaminate the neighbours or your house.
Don't mess with it unless you have a proper spray booth!
Terry
Yuk. But I suppose it is ok to use if you don't get on with your neighbours!!!
So what is the problem with polyurethane, is it similar?
Nick
Spyder : True it contains cyanide, but then so did sweets many years ago, and writeable CDs have it in them, and old wallpaper. To paraphrase from
this month's Car Mechanic's magazine, Sodium Chloride tastes great on chips, but Sodium Chlorate is one of the most powerful weed killers
and does anything but taste great on chips. Just because it contains similar elements doesn't mean that it has similar properties.
Incidentally I'm not trying to play down the dangers of 2k, it's still not something to disrespect, just trying to get burst the myth that
2k paint "is like cyanide". You won't drop dead from a whiff of 2k, hell, you could probably do a whole car with a charcoal filter and
not drop dead, but it would have severely and permanently affected you respiratory system, and who knows how much or little it would take to
completely finish you off.
Kingr
It's the isocyanate component in the hardener that is carcinogenic according to the paint shop across the road. Cyanide is also a cumulative
poison building up over the years till it reaches a level where it will affect the user.
yours, Pete.
quote:
Originally posted by kingr
Spyder : True it contains cyanide, but then so did sweets many years ago, and writeable CDs have it in them, and old wallpaper. To paraphrase from this month's Car Mechanic's magazine, Sodium Chloride tastes great on chips, but Sodium Chlorate is one of the most powerful weed killers and does anything but taste great on chips. Just because it contains similar elements doesn't mean that it has similar properties.
Incidentally I'm not trying to play down the dangers of 2k, it's still not something to disrespect, just trying to get burst the myth that 2k paint "is like cyanide". You won't drop dead from a whiff of 2k, hell, you could probably do a whole car with a charcoal filter and not drop dead, but it would have severely and permanently affected you respiratory system, and who knows how much or little it would take to completely finish you off.
Kingr
I'm not a Doctor (trust me!), but we were always told that isocyanate is cumulative. The stuff stays in your body and when your individual tollerance is reached - you die.
quote:
Originally posted by Syd Bridge
my local paint supplier sells a "Universal" hardener for all 2k paints. So they must all have similar hardeners, no matter whether they are polyester, polyurethane, or acrylic.
I sprayed my nosecone with polyurethane paint, to ensure it didn't stick when I took a mold from it and believe me it is well strong. It fell
off the table bounced off a set of metal racking, off the car, off a set of wooden ramps and hit the floor (dented part of the car) and there was no
damage to the paint other than a small indentation the size of the end of your finger nail!
And rubbing it down was a real bitch.
By the way I won't use Pollyurethane paint again after reading this thread!
Nick
What is the best way to tackle 1K paint and how much does it cost?
Nick
Discussed it a little earlier on in this thread, but if you want metallics - used standard polyester basecoat (no gloss - easy to spray) and then 1K
lacquer (use straight from the tin - no thinning)
Cheap polyester costs about £18 per litre and 1K clear is about £45 a gallon (i know smaller quantities are available but dont know the cost).
You could also use cob (clear over base) for non metallics is you want. Nice deep gloss and a little more UV stable on reds. The 1K clear will degrade
after a few years out in the elements - but should be OK for a car that is garaged most of its life.
I've heard rumours that celly, 2k etc are no longer available. Is this the case?
What are these new "water based" paints that are supposed to replace them?