Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 16/2/11 at 01:11 PM |
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Fireblade 893cc Questions
I have the opportunity to buy a complete Firblade 893cc set-up from a currently running bike but have a few questions that somebody may kindly be able
to help me with:
The seller says that the Speedo on this bike runs off the front wheel, if this is correct what sort of speedo are people fitting to Road going
Locosts?
Secondly how interchangeable are the earlier Fireblade Engines? (893, 919, 929cc etc) Could I fit this 893cc Unit into my car and then replace it at a
later date by buying just the engine unit and minimal ancillaries from one of the later bikes and using the electric and mounting from the 893? Or are
they all completely different?
How much roughly would people pay for a complete 893 set-up? 20k Miles, runs fun, good gearbox?
Lastly I believe that AB Performance are the supplier of Fireblade BEC bits like baffled sumps, exhausts and the like, roughly how much are their bits
(to get the engine running in a car) as there is no price list on the website. And I don't like to bother people on the phone with theoretical
questions.
Cheers for the help
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andyfiggy2002
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| posted on 16/2/11 at 04:24 PM |
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speedo u can have sensor off front wheel hub nuts that connect hub to disc or like mine a transducer that runs off the propshaft bolts, as mine does
10mph every 1k revs in top im not to bothered with speedo, just keep my eye on rev counter, mines 893cc carbed priced at about £1k with no dry sump
& later models fuel injection so poss issue there, however if you go for a new 1000rr thens thats a completely different animal & lots more
money £2k with dry sump costing another £1k
MK
westfield
i come on here as WSCC flatly refuse to have a BEC forum, the sump baffle is a simple sheet of aluminium, grind off those seat belt lumps on top rail
as they weigh a ton, drill holes in pedals, drill holes in seat supports & remove runners if fitted, fit bike battery, modify RGB if fitted,
uprate reg/ rectifier, fit a bike fuel pump with in line filter, dynojet with sock filter, uprate jets from standard bike 115 to 130 & uprate
clutch springs to stronger blackbird ones, fit paddleshift, as colin chapman used to say lightness is everything, speak to andy as he knows everything
BEC
[Edited on 16/2/11 by andyfiggy2002]
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 17/2/11 at 01:27 PM |
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Cheers Andy
Who do you recomend as a supplier for the pump/jet/filter parts that you mentioned?
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eddie99
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| posted on 17/2/11 at 01:30 PM |
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I know you said you don't like to ring people with theoretical questions but Andy will answer all your questions and give you his advice on
everything you want.
http://www.elitemotorsporteng.co.uk/
Twitter: @Elitemotoreng
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Elite-Motorsport-Engineering/153409081394323
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 17/2/11 at 03:19 PM |
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As above, give Andy a call. Whether you buy anything from him or not he is just genuinely pleasant and very, very helpful
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 17/2/11 at 03:54 PM |
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Cheers again, I'll probably drop him an e-mail first and see if he has a price list that I can look at. Then call him if I buy the unit.
The engine question is doing my head in at the moment. Do I buy an 893 Firblade and get the car finished and on the grid, or do I save and spend 3X
the price on a ZX10R?
The car was designed to take a ZX10R but I believe my lack of experience in actual race driving may better suit a Fireblade and the upgrade to a ZX10R
for the next season.
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Richard Quinn
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| posted on 17/2/11 at 04:02 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
The engine question is doing my head in at the moment. Do I buy an 893 Firblade and get the car finished and on the grid, or do I save and spend 3X
the price on a ZX10R?
In my experience, that is exactly the type of question that Andy is very good at giving an experienced and knowledgable steer on
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eddie99
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| posted on 17/2/11 at 04:04 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Quinn
quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
The engine question is doing my head in at the moment. Do I buy an 893 Firblade and get the car finished and on the grid, or do I save and spend 3X
the price on a ZX10R?
In my experience, that is exactly the type of question that Andy is very good at giving an experienced and knowledgable steer on
+1
http://www.elitemotorsporteng.co.uk/
Twitter: @Elitemotoreng
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/Elite-Motorsport-Engineering/153409081394323
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ReMan
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| posted on 17/2/11 at 06:10 PM |
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My money, stick with the nice cheap blade while you find out how bad youy really are!
As per OP, £3-400 for the engine with loom carbs etc
Speedo off front wheel was the very earliest , later ran from sensor in gearbox, get a later set of clocks and the trigger from a later engine and and
strap it near the prop bolts, speedo healer, job done
WTF is Andy Barnes?
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yorkshire-engines
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| posted on 17/2/11 at 06:16 PM |
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however if you go for a new 1000rr then thats a completely different animal & lots more money £2k with dry sump costing another £1k
where do these prices come from 2007 blade complete kit £1500 tops 2010 blade kit very max £2k and they dont need a dry sump never had
never will
893 blade 125 bhp 09 zx10 186 bhp
which would you choose
[Edited on 17/2/11 by yorkshire-engines]
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 17/2/11 at 06:39 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by yorkshire-engines
893 blade 125 bhp 09 zx10 186 bhp
which would you choose
[Edited on 17/2/11 by yorkshire-engines]
I know which I would choose.... 2x ZX10R's both with Turbo Chargers attached. 
I think it will come down to what I can afford..... I'm leaning towards the older Fireblade to get it finished and then keep the ZX10 Cradle and
mounts ready for a 2nd season upgrade.
And I will call this 'Yoda Like' Andy at AB
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andyfiggy2002
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 01:37 AM |
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oops sorry for my ignorance malc, obviously u know what your talking about, just thought newer blades were very tall thats all, i'll get my
coat
[Edited on 18/2/11 by andyfiggy2002]
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progers
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 07:39 AM |
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Doctor,
Andy is the sponsor of RGB , he would be more than happy to guide someone who is joining the series.
I do not know what your financial status is but there are pro's and cons for each option. Blade is cheap and an easy install but to make the
thing sing you will need to buy a decent airbox (Andy B does one) and install a billet sump and baffle plate. However, once you have done this you
have wasted a lot of money on something you will rip out the next season (the bits won't be worth what you paid for them...). Note that the
blade has a more fragile gearbox and there are very few good ones around. Usually they have to be refurbished to get them running at peak power and
that will be more money than a ZX10 - hence why RGB is moving towards the new 1000cc engines.
To go ZX10 later, you will have to replace exhaust, change the fuelling arrangement (for fuel injection, ) new airbox/body mods to accommodate engine,
change loom etc. as well as buying engine, new sump etc.
Personally (if you can afford it) I would bite the bullet once and just put a 2006/7 ZX10 in (don't bother with the 08/09 - its a more complex
beast to get running with marginal gain and its more expensive). £1200-1500 gets you a good nick one so you will spend around 1K more to get what you
want - in the long run it will be cheaper though. While you feel you won't be able to drive it to its full potential, keeping the same car from
the off will give you time to just concentrate on driving the car and learning how to drive it faster. There are 2 guys in RGB running this engine
(BobM is on here). I can't emphasize how important it is to have a nice stable, consistent platform to help improve your driving - I had an R1
phoenix for my first 3 years in RGB and it wasn't until the second season I really got to grips with it.
Just my tuppence worth.
By the way if you want to see what's involved in changing an engine over have a look at MK9R's blog about converting from Blade to R1 -
http://www.austengreenway.co.uk/ its not as simple as you might think.
I am currently converting from ZX12 to Gixxer, and its a pain in the ars*e, I'd rather be out there doing testing and honing the car!
Cheers
Paul
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andyfiggy2002
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 10:10 AM |
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the 893cc that i fitted in 2003 really started the BEC craze off, its bulllet proof & cost a £1k for everything, ive hillclimbed, sprinted,
thrashed the balls off it & its still going strong, the reason i picked a 93 model was i didnt have to CAT it so was able to get through SVA
emissions, not sure about IVA now, u can upgrade to 919 with only diff being gear linkage is other way round, both just need a simple ali plate sump
baffle plate, westfield do one for pence, i uprated clutch blackbird springs, bigger jets if fitting air sock so if your on a budget go for 893, if
moneys not an option ZX14
[Edited on 18/2/11 by andyfiggy2002]
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 10:31 AM |
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Cheers guys, Some very helpful points all the way through. I will give Andy at AB a call later.
I feel it would help to explain my situation a little better, I have been building/running race cars for years now but this is the 1st car that I have
owned and will be driving.
The fact is that I have a very limited budget to build the thing, each month I have a certain amount to put aside to spend on parts, this is the main
limiting factor on completing the build. The actual building of the car is simple once I get parts.
If I buy an 893cc Firblade now I can just about afford it on my Jan/Feb budget, then I can can get it in the car and work on getting the thing on its
wheels and running by April.
if I buy a ZX10R (the cheapest I can find is £1900) I will have to save for 4 months and thus there will be no progress at all until the end of June
as I wont be able to buy anything else in that period. Or if I carry on buying a few parts it will take until September/October just to get an engine
and running gear.
The comment below is why I am leaning towards a Firebalde
quote:
Originally posted by progers
I'd rather be out there doing testing and honing the car!
I'd rather have the car finished this summer and get out there driving it than spend the next 4-5 months staring at half built chassis and
twiddling my thumbs waiting for each pay-packet.
The car is also a one-off chassis with unique suspension so I want/need to test it before I get out on the grid, maybe get some test days and sprints
done in it this year and then enter RGB for 2012. If I wait for a ZX10R I will probably not finish the car before Jan/Feb 2012 and then I'll
turn up with very little driving experience and an un-tested car. I am determined that this car will be finished and racing reliably in 2012, I love
motorsport and I'd rather be there running at the back than just staring at an unfinished car.
This is also not the only car I am working on as well, we are also designing from scratch our own Mid-Engine Moncoque, ZX10R powered RGB/Bike Sport,
the car I am building now will be used as a test mule for suspension and running gear for project HHS (as we call it) but thats another story 
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andyfiggy2002
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 11:23 AM |
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if your anything like me when i built mine you will have this insane urge to get it built quickly & want to enjoy driving the thing, i may only
have a miserable 130bhp but at 420kg 0-60 in 4 secs & F1 soundtrack im happy but then again im not racing it, just enjoying the wind in the hair
driving experience
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fimi7
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 11:56 AM |
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More power more Power.
I looked at several engines from diffrerent bikes, then I looked at what engines are raced. This lead me to 2, R1 or Hayabusa.
Based on that I looked at cost and availability of parts, not only to build a kit car, but also for future power improvements.
If you are going to be happy with it in stock form, then yep the 893 will work. But if you have any inclination to make more power, then I am not sure
the variety of upgrade kits and parts exist.
The last 2 things that drove my decision was around other BEC guys and displacement. The more people that have built the car with the same engine, the
more support you have in the forums. Especially when questions come up.
With displacement, its always easier to build more power from a larger engine 
Cutting cost based on the engine I would say is not the way to go, since its the heart of the car, I would say its the biggest decision.
--- Ali
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andyfiggy2002
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 12:12 PM |
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if its from the heart my next wish & i say wish would be a ducati engine just for that fantastic sound alone, shame its not got the torque for
BEC's tho
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progers
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 02:50 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
if I buy a ZX10R (the cheapest I can find is £1900) .
I appreciate your position, but £1900 for a ZX10r kit is a rip off. The ZX10 is the cheapest of the new generation 1 litre engines to buy, just hang
around a while and a cheaper one will come your way. In the meantime put your monthly allowance towards all the other aspects of the build and save
 . You might feel you are getting a deal on the blade but can you really vouch for how good it is? You are talking an engine that is > 15
years old? Its quite likely you will be facing an expensive bill to put it right within a few races (racing is a very harsh environment).
IMHO its better to just go for the right solution first time, even if it delays you a couple of months. Better still, beg/steal/borrow some money
Cheers
Paul
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Doctor Derek Doctors
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 03:24 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by progers
quote:
Originally posted by Doctor Derek Doctors
if I buy a ZX10R (the cheapest I can find is £1900) .
In the meantime put your monthly allowance towards all the other aspects of the build and save
Cheers
Paul
I think you and me may have very different disposable incomes. If I save for 4 months with without buying any other bits at all I will just be able
to afford an ZX10R and then it will be June and I still wont have any steering, front brakes, body work, fuel system etc etc etc. I can't afford
to buy bits and save............... bloody expensive hobbies.
I've been keeping an eye open for 6 months and the only ZX10R kit I have seen for under £1600 was a track bike that had done 26K track miles in
4 years....... didn't really fill me with confidence.
Alas it looks like it will have to be old-school CBR.
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andrew.carwithen
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 04:50 PM |
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If you're on a tight budget then IMHO deffo 'blade.
Pretty bomb proof and cheap as chips if they do blow (seen them circa. £350 for basic engine)
As others have said, baffle the sump, upgrade the clutch to barnett springs, maybe fit a sausage filter if you can't afford an airbox and after
talking to Andy Bates (which is an absolute must!), fit one of his dynojet kits as he'll supply the exact size jets and needle settings etc. for
your set up and I guarantee that it'll pull right through the rev range straight out of the box. (He spent several days on a rolling road
establishing the exact requirements so that you don't have to.)
He may well be able to supply suitable s/h parts such as a 'zorst manifold, silencer etc.
Andy.
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progers
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 06:34 PM |
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If your budget is that tight then fair enough go with the blade. The point I was making was that in the long run it will be the more expensive option
if you then upgrade at a later stage i.e. in terms of cash spent.
Enjoy your build and come along to some of the meets this year.
Cheers
Paul
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Benzo
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 07:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by andyfiggy2002
the 893cc that i fitted in 2003 really started the BEC craze off, its bulllet proof & cost a £1k for everything, ive hillclimbed, sprinted,
thrashed the balls off it & its still going strong, the reason i picked a 93 model was i didnt have to CAT it so was able to get through SVA
emissions, not sure about IVA now, u can upgrade to 919 with only diff being gear linkage is other way round, both just need a simple ali plate sump
baffle plate, westfield do one for pence, i uprated clutch blackbird springs, bigger jets if fitting air sock so if your on a budget go for 893, if
moneys not an option ZX14
[Edited on 18/2/11 by andyfiggy2002]
just to add when i converted my 893 westie to 919 i had to build a new bottom subframe, the bottom mounts, width or something must be different..
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progers
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 07:57 PM |
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Why not buy this
http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/34/viewthread.php?tid=146576
More powerful engine, no need to buy a sump/baffle (comes in package) should be no more costly than the blade...
Paul
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eddie99
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| posted on 18/2/11 at 08:14 PM |
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Yeah i agree, get that R1
http://www.elitemotorsporteng.co.uk/
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