Hi Guys

I’m slowly getting to the bottom of my starting problems.

At the start of the build I was always worried about my non existent skills with the electrics and now reliable starting seems to be the only problem I have left with the car.

First the timing was out, bumped started the car and set the timing, carburettors and idle.

Second the starter motor was U/S. Problem now solved with new starter motor and the engine turns over well. (110% better than before).

Third the battery and earth leads smoked and got very hot. Now replaced with braided straps and 415 amp cable, the cables no longer get hot or smoke when cranking.

Fourth the battery seems to be U/S due to over discharging whilst trying to crank it over in the past. Still to solve.

I fully charged the battery on Friday night, following the completion of lead and strap replacement, I cranked the car over, 5sec crank and 5 sec rest. After about 30 seconds to one minute the battery was drained to the point the engine would not turn over. Recharged the battery over night until the charger read fully charged and maintaining. Tried cranking over again, same thing happened and discharged with in a minute.

What is the best type of battery to buy? Acid or gel.

I’m running a 2.1 pinto (a “new engine” from Vulcan Eng with high compression etc) should I be looking for a bigger battery than one rated for a pinto powered Capri/ Sierra?

Your advice would be much appreciated.

regards

Ditch

With all the problems you state, it sounds like you may have a faulty battery.

The thing which concerns me is you saying the earth leads smoked... if the leads also get hot it may indicate a faulty connection... most cable will withstand over power for a short period but yo uwant to be careful that you are not effectively shorting out the battery somewhere - IT COULD EXPLODE!

Your battery should be discharging about 70A... typical 10mm cable should take this easily. If it's not, you could have serious faults somewhere else and chasing a potential disaster.

IMHO - check your wiring before progressing any further m8...


Steve

It's true that to make smoke you need a fundamental problem somewhere but a faulty connection on the earth wire would certainly be enough.... Even a resistance of 1 ohm at 70 amps would be getting rid of loads of watts. Hence heat, which combined with grot on the earth wire results in smoke.....
I wouldn't bother going for anything other than a bog standard lead acid battery.

but then I have killed quite a few batteries in my time so maybe I'm not the best person to ask

[Edited on 26/3/07 by BenB]

As said before; check your wiring and make sure your starter doesn't shortcircuit somehow.

When you attach the cables to the battery; is there a spark? That would indicate some short somewhere.

As for batttery; I would go for the biggest, cheapest one you can get based on the wheel wheights. It is no use to buy an expensive small one and then to add ballast to the car to balance things out.

I use a standard diesel aftermarket audi battery; plenty of juice to start. The previous small expensive one always had me worried.

I'm not the world's expert on starting engines.... but to be honest, I wouldn't be cranking for nearly as long as a minute!

If it doesn't fire after a few seconds then there's something wrong that needs sorting, just throwing more fuel down the bores and out the exhaust isn't going to help.

Have you got a spark? Take a plug out and earth it on the head to check. If so, then is the plug lead order correct. Then is the timing right?
Are you actually getting fuel into the engine? If all of them are ok then it's something far more serious.

Atb,
James

You will need a minimum spec of battery to turn a 2.0 litre engine. this is even more important if, as in your case you are running high compression. Add to that the fact that it is a stiff new engine.

Your local battery dealer will tell you which one you need. The one I got fitted exactly in the rectangular moulding in the MK firewall panel.

With your engine, I would say that you're close to needing a special Hi Torque starter (very expensive) so if you are not using one of those, the components you are using all need to be in tip top condition.

HTH

Cheers

Mark

For a start, Ditch says his cables don't smoke any more, since getting new earth strap & cable.

As for batteries, you might like to consider one made for diesel engines - they're usually a bit larger with more 'poke'.

But to be honest, if the car is cranking over OK, and will bump-start, then I would check your 'starting the engine process'. For example, should you begin by pulling on the choke fully, or partially? Should you pump the accelerator before starting? It's possible that all this faffing about is flooding the engine. As a for-instance, when I start my crossflow I pull the choke half-way out (unless bitterly cold), pump the pedal 2 or 3 times, then start. It'll almost always go. If I get it wrong and it takes 4 or 5 attempts then I might as well go and have a coffee, 'cos it'll be a pig to start for a while. I don't know Pintos, but I bet there's a similar process!

HTH,
David

I had the same problem with my Rover tintop just before xmas last year.

It turned out to be the alternator earthing the battery. £45 later with a new alternator and it was fixed.

Many thanks lads

The smoking leads were from the dirt and poor contacts, and I don’t have any sparking when I connect the battery so I’m pretty sure that there are no major shorts.

The alternator may well be worn out as it is from the donor which had 120k on the clock. I have a new alternator that came with the engine, but that’s a story in itself.

When I dropped the engine into the car it came to rest on the alternator belt pulley. I had to remove the alternator and reposition the mounting onto the water pump as MK advised. When I looked at the alternator the pulley appeared to have a slight wobble as it rotated so I put the old one on. Would this wobble have a big effect on the belt of the running of the alternator? I suppose I’m asking is it safe to use?

I know it all sounds like a catalogue of disasters; I suppose that’s why the wife makes me get the professionals in when she wants some DIY doing…

As for the starting procedures, when I collected the engine I talked to the bloke and he advised not to put a choke on as it would flood to easily, just give it three pumps of the throttle and fire up.

I will check for spark to night and see if there is fuel at the carb’s. if it still kills the battery I will get another one tomorrow.

I’ll keep you posted.


Ditch

The MK Battery Tray is made to fit an 069 Car battery...

Steve

I used a 680 amp battery for my Pinto, which did seem difficult to turn over, especially when hot. It weighted the same as a small country.

I have downgraded to a 300amp for the Zetec and it starts no problem.

try it on (good) jump leads to provide that extra fraction of a volt and so the battery doesnt die. You might be able to unwire the alternator temporarily to see if thats a problem. Im baffled how it can bumpstart but not manage on its own.

Might it be something to do with device that changes the voltage over the coil when you crank it? I forget the name, but basically your coil normally sees 9v and when cranking it lets through 12. Seems the only possible solution if it bumps but wont jump.

[Edited on 26/3/07 by JoelP]

What ignition system are you running and how long has the engine actually run for? The ballast resisted coil can be swapped for a 12 volt and get rid of the resistor and the engine may still be tight if it's not been run for long, causing the strain on the battery. There is a lead run from the ignition to the coil during cranking to give 12v and when cranking stops the feed drops to 9v via the ballast resistor.

I've just been in the garage. I checked and there is a spark.

i went round to the fuel filter and put my hand down, and found a black slime which smells of petrol. i think that one of the clamps holding the fuel lines may be leaking.

it would make sense as it is probably pulling air rather than petrol. the colour of the gunk conserns me as i have used the correct grade of fuel line. i need to take the filter out and clean it and put new fuel clamps on the pipes.

well i have now eliminated the starter motor, the ingnition system, so the fuel system is the next stop.

regards
Ditch

Any time I have had starting problems, replacing the battery was the answer.

If the battery is on the way out, it will have a relatively high internal resistance. When you use the starter and crank the engine, drawing lots of current, the battery voltage will fall and the spark will be weak because of the low voltage.

Under these circumstances, you may be able to bump start because you aren't taking much current from the battery and its output voltage is still up where it should be, giving a healthier spark.

I would beg, borrow or steal a big battery known to be healthy. Beware of cheap jumper cables too. The cables should be about as thick as your thumb. Make sure you have really good contact at both ends and put the black negative jumper to the engine metal as near to the starter as possible, not to the car battery terminal.

Good luck

Many thanks Macbeast

when i checked the spark last night i thought it was a bit weak.

i will buy a new battery, and use the old one in a project i have in mind.

the jump cables i have are as thick as you describe.

i'm going to put lighting in my summer house and will be using 12 volt car battries that are charged with a solar car charger, so another battery will not harm.

regards

Ditch