I've been investigating the possibilities that are within my budget, having decided to design and build my own car, but cannot put a finger on my design philosophy. I started off looking at making a 4WD front-engined car, but then got convinced that it was a no-go and since then I've been wandering round the fields of options without direction. I've considered monster V8 and tiny BEC. RWD and 4WD twin engined. But ultimately I can see the appeal in all of them, and can't sus out which I actually want to get started on. How do you decide which route to take? I know most people are bound by their chassis choice, but I don't have that pleasure.
If I were to build a car from scratch, then it would be hard to look past the exo style car, such as the Warner R4.
There are also some pictures on this forum of basically a copy of that car. Stott has them, I think it's his mate.
The red chassis looks stunning against the black.
what do you want the car for, is a pure track toy that will never be on the road, or is it a grand tourer, do you want comfort, or are you happy to wear a helmet every time you go out....... Answer all these types of questions first, that will cut you options down and make things a bit easier and hopefully mean you end up with the car you really want
quote:
Originally posted by graememk
Try to get a drive in a BEC/standard car engined car and mega V8 versions - as (preferably) driver or passenger. Your decision will be easier to make
then. In the end I decided I wanted a car mostly for the road, and would use it as a daily drive in the warmer months, so am going for a relatively
sane tune from a car engine. If you want to race, your first decision needs to be which series you are going to enter, as this may dictate your
choice.
Regards
Hugh
[Edited on 18/10/10 by hughpinder]
A 4x4 seven has been done, Dax offered the Rush Quadra about 2002 LINKY, or if you fancy a
challenge, how about jet power
It's going to be a road car primarily, but I'd like it to be something a bit special. One major contender was to drop in the running gear
from an MR2 Turbo, atom style, but then I realised the engine/gear from that would not be far off the same weight as an Audi 4.2 V8.
But both of those are going to be fairly heavy weight in comparison with a BEC. I'd love to have a try in all 3 but I'd consider myself
lucky to be taken for a spin in any of them, let alone all of them!
I know of the quadra, but I'm not keen on a front-mid engine'd layout (he said, hanging about on a locost site lol). Arghh.
it depends how special you want it to be?
i decided to do something which i thought was 'special' in putting an f20c lump from an s2000 in there. so i bought a donor,stripped it
bare, took the engine and box to mnr. and they built a chassis to suit. its a perfect fit! and hopefully good reliable power for not a massive ammount
of money
To be fair, if I design it myself it's going to be special enough for me but I can't help but get the feeling that if I do it I should do it
once (with revisions no doubt) and properly. i.e. if I'm going over the 1.6 tax bracket I might as well go well over it and get the highest
power/weight I can sensibly afford. If I'm going to build a mid-rear engined I might as well make it an F1 layout, which essentially means audi
v8 with diesel transaxle.
Naturally I can't justify investing vast amounts in it, and I probably won't be racing it on a track too much, but the last thing I want to
do is build up, for example, a ZZR1100 powered car and then sit there and wish I'd spent the additional few hundred quid on a heavier but much
more tunable lump and "done it properly". Or lob in an audi V8 and find that it just doesn't corner as well as I'd hoped. I think
it's the holy grail I'm looking for lol.
Surely it's intended use has to be the prime consideration - Road/Track/Race/Off-Road, every day, fairweather driving etc?
I would also be worth talking to builders like nitram38 (MotaLeira), cloudy (Warner R4), Kimini, AlanB etc to really understand the costs and work
involved in a unique design and build project.
90% of its use will be to replace my weekend tin-top. I'm a bit of a masochist so I'll happily do 5-600 mile trips in it every so often, but
I'd still consider that in a BEC. All weather but probably mainly dry weather. On road.
The R4 is the car that really ticked many boxes when I started to think about it properly. I've been involved with the design and creation of a
single seat track BEC for competitions and I'm more than aware of the difficulties that lie down the route ahead, but I'm looking at it as a
long-ish term hobby build to basically take as long as the welding patch-jobs on my tin-top toy last! I still have a daily driver. I do have a garage
to build it in and keep it in and I have access to lathes/milling machines.
Keep starting new treads, re-wording the same question and you'll get basically the same answers.
With respect, adithorp, I've not asked the same question at all. My other threads have been asking specifics about each type, I'm now trying
to pick my way through the decision process with a bit of feedback from a friendly discussion here. I'm not looking for definitive answers,
I'm looking for general chat around the subject to help me tilt my mind one way - that chat might be the thing that fixes a choice in my head, or
highlights one key point missed from the more specific Q's earlier.
If you don't like contributing to that, don't, but don't get your knickers in a twist over it either.
[Edited on 18/10/10 by coyoteboy]
quote:
Originally posted by graememk
quote:
Originally posted by TimC
quote:
Originally posted by graememk
Only in Newport (01633)
Wouldn't like to hit that in a head-on!
So start with what you do know/want. then answer the questions that arise from that. Once you've got some answers/decitions made from what you do
know, maybe that starts to lead to answers to the other bits.
You want to build your own chassis.
Do you want exo-skeleton or bodywork? From that ask how wet and windy are you happy with? If bodywork do you want to make that from scratch or buy in
(which basically means 7esque)?
To answer the title question... Because you used to be indecisive but now you're not so sure.
adrian
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Wouldn't like to hit that in a head-on!
adrian - yup, indecision has me by the nads.
It's only really the powerplant/drivetrain layout that I'm in indecision about, I know I'm going exo, wet weather doesn't bother
me, worst case scenario I'll pack a drysuit
The 3 different setups I've had floating in my head have some similarities (mid-rear) but are otherwise vastly different. Big heavy silly engine
for high base power and massive potential, or mid-line power with potential for more and a bit lighter, or very light but with feck-all power and
much lower power-weight ratio and harder tuning.
That's 3 different design strategies I suppose, one's the american brute force method with little to go wrong but fairly heavy, two is the
middle-of-the-road "normal" route and three is the lightweight frantic expensive to improve route.
I'm currently unable to identify how much difference the extra 200+kg of V8, or extra 100kg+ of MR2 engine, would make to the handling of a small
vehicle, over a BEC. But I don't want to bring this back to a BEC/CEC argument. Many would say you can counter the extra weight with the correct
suspension setup, but many would say you can't. Hence the indecision.
I know BEC route will require more hardware to be custom made and probably prove expensive, but each has its own areas of possible extra expense.
Buy twin zzr1100 engines and you don't need a diff and can compete on power/weight but have ultimately just made it the same power/weight as a
decent car engine but with added complexity.
I could go on.
Define...
1. high base power
2. mid-line power
3. feck-all power
...in order to give us some terms of reference.
Well, working from what I (personally) know I can get from each engine:
High base power - the V8 chucks out 300 stock, 450 with a supercharger and some time. This is achievable but I'd call it potential for later
development.
Mid-line power I'd call the 3S-GTE - stock power is 200ish, I can easily get 300+ from it for next to no extra cash, maybe more. This is where my
experience lies
Feck all power is a bike engine - 150ish stock, max on my budget and knowledge. Maybe 200+ with a turbo and some extra bits down the line but I'm
not so confident in this field due to lack of experience.
I don't know if you remember but I made up a spreadsheet and the two top contenders on power/weigh were the 3S-GTE and the V8, the bike engines
really fell behind on both cost and "performance". But I'm struggling to quantify the weight side of things in the handling performance
equation.
[Edited on 18/10/10 by coyoteboy]
quote:
Originally posted by MikeR
quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Wouldn't like to hit that in a head-on!
I wouldn't like to hit it at any angle - power to weight must be atrocious.
quote:
Originally posted by TimC
quote:
Originally posted by graememk
Only in Newport (01633)
.... Tim is that you on Vox? What engines can you get hold of?
I'm in no rush, so ultimately any engine, but I'd like to keep the powerplant reasonably priced. I've spoken to a few suppliers who can get me the V8 and tranny for 7-800 with reasonably low miles. But I could get a full donor car for 500 (with issues easy to fix) if I went with the 3S engine. Obviously need to add a few hundred on for ECU and a few sensors but I have most of these already from previous projects.
Still haven't made a decision on this, I'm driving myself nuts!
Narrowed it down to the audi V8 (mid rear longitudinal), a 3S-GTE transverse or a zzr1100 turbo with a chain drive I think, but as the decision has an
emotional portion I'm screwed lol. The kid in me want's the V8 for the looks and the noise. The sensible person in me wants the 3S because I
know it, know how to get 300hp from it easily and think it'd be the easiest job (apart from anything I could just drop my current maps onto it
from my tin top) and the nut in me wants the turbo bike engine for weight and cornering reasons.
The realist in me thinks I could do all of them fairly neatly and probably all of them will be beyond my skill levels for driving and since each
will deliver a different project route and different results I want to do all of them. 
Its taken you 10 months, to still not be deceided what to build?
personly o would not bother
Steve
I know im not you but my thoughts...
Go with the mr2 lump. Considering youre going with atom-esque shape and chassis style, then why not use the same kind of logic as the atom. This used
a 2.0 car engine, albeit from a civic. But charged up putting out around 300BHP (IIRC). This car has proved its silly quick doing 60 under 3 secs and
lap times etc. So why not copy what others have already done?
This will give better reliabilty over a bike engine and a shed loads of torque compared to the bike engine. And personally i think the V8 lump and box
would be too heavy in the back of a exo car. Yes it would look good, sound good and give huge bragging rights. But would probably also be harder to
set up etc.
I say stick with the same design concept that has been proven by ariel.
quote:
Its taken you 10 months, to still not be deceided what to build? personly o would not bother
Better thinking about it for a
while and building the right thing than just using a known solution or picking one at random and find out out later you didn't want that. To be
fair I've pretty much researched the hell out of every option I have so I know once I choose exactly what I'm doing! 
Bike engine provides "light and nuts" which is the feel I enjoy when driving, but I can't
accurately quantify the difference. My initial projections put the V8 car about 100kg heavier, which isn't a lot for the fun, but it'd
naturally be a longer wider car. quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Still haven't made a decision on this, I'm driving myself nuts!
There is also the problem that as it's taken you 10 months to get nowhere, by the time you've decided on an engine, built half a chassis to
fit it etc etc there will be a new 'super' engine engine/gizmo you really REALLY want instead and you'll have to start pretty much from
scratch again..............
I believe Scootz knows all about this kind of 'loop to nowhere' limbo as well
For what it's worth I think you should use the most complex/visually impressive/unusual engine in your list (whichever it may be). I suspect from
reading your posts that people being impressed with the car while it's parked at a show or whatever is slightly more important to you than
outright handling and performance. Nothing wrong with that, not my thing personally but it wont be my car either
quote:
How do you think the rest of us feel?
I'm actually pretty shocked
at the attitude on here to be honest. A) to assume it's the sole thing someone thinks about and should have had a decision on in a weekend, and
b) to put so little thought into the matter seems a bit mental. It's a pretty big task to undertake with a hefty financial and time investment -
it needs thought to plan it right and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter if it takes an extra 6 months to make final choices and
plans - most of the 7-esque builds I've seen on here have been 3-4 years /build/ work - I can't even begin to understand the reasoning
behind that. Once decisions are made it takes feck all time to make a chassis and fit the parts if they're all standard-ish parts, it's the
design and planning (particularly of all new) that are difficult. But then I forget most people on here just work from other peoples plans and stick
to known solutions. This is a long term project which will take a couple of years to design and build properly and will be fitted around about 4 other
fairly time-demanding hobbies. quote:
There is also the problem that as it's taken you 10 months to get nowhere, by the time you've decided on an engine, built half a chassis to fit it etc etc there will be a new 'super' engine engine/gizmo you really REALLY want instead and you'll have to start pretty much from scratch again..............
quote:
I suspect from reading your posts that people being impressed with the car while it's parked at a show or whatever is slightly more important to you than outright handling and performance.
I agree with you coyoteboy.
It takes as long as it takes. Do something different, do something fun and do it with a good plan.
It's just that talking about building, and actually finishing a car are quite different. We like to see finished or at least, projects
progressing. That's just part of the deal around here I think. Unless one is an engineer or professional mechanic, it takes a lot longer than you
think to actually FINISH something. It always looks simple from the outside, but for most people, it's quite a challenge, unless they have bought
a ready-to-go kit like Westerham or something.
It also costs a fortune no matter which way you look at it: time = money and all that: Less time = more money. More time = less money.
[Edited on 26/8/11 by RK]
OK - I misjudged . For me cars are for driving not spending years agonising over what to build (unless you haven't got the money or time to
actualy build it yet) and then years building - but each to their own.
You say you want primarily a road car and you want it to be a a drivers car yet all the BHP figures you mention will give you a car with a bhp/ton
figure well in excess of anything you can practically use on Britains roads so you will have a blisteringly fast car you'll have to drive around
on half throttle all the time.....not worth the time/money if you ask me! Plus if it's a primarily a road car there will be compromises that
you'll have to make which will blunt it's performance as a track car and vis versa if built as a track car........
To be honest there is no answer to your problem - personally I would look into a high revving lightweight car engine with the potential for 200-250bhp
and, although still a compromise, it should combine most of the best attributes of all your other options AND you will stand more chance of being able
to drive it somewhere close to it's potential on the roads and/or track.
quote:
Once decisions are made it takes feck all time to make a chassis and fit the parts if they're all standard-ish parts, it's the design and planning (particularly of all new) that are difficult. But then I forget most people on here just work from other peoples plans and stick to known solutions. This is a long term project which will take a couple of years to design and build properly and will be fitted around about 4 other fairly time-demanding hobbies.
Hi Fred,
Yep, it's a fairly short time and "a couple" was "nearer 2 than 5" rather than "2 years" but I know where
you're coming from. I do have a little experience building single seaters and know where the pitfalls are (apart from the IVA/legal side of
things) and what's possible, and where the major PITA's lie, though I'm far from an expert. I also have access to some fairly decent
machine tools which will help I would, however, say that the engine choice is absolutely pivotal on the whole car design philosophy though - the
packaging, suspension, everything else is affected by it to a great degree so it needs to be right first. Once I finally get the decision made I can
move on to suspension/steering and then finally chassis and the rest. I'm fortunate to have contact with some pretty good chassis/suspension
knowledge too so I have help I can call on there, but for me the end result is only part of the fun - the design process will be at least 50% of the
entertainment to me. I'd rather build/design things than drive them TBH, though I do love driving!
[Edited on 26/8/11 by coyoteboy]
Can I remind you that a 7 style car is a great big compromise no matter how you slice it? It does not handle like a single seater, nor like a normal
road car. So I would hate to see someone proceed down a path of trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Bad analogy... but you get the
drift.
Just speaking for myself, the car has been a nightmare. Nothing short of that. I went down a "let's try this" because that's what
was available to me in Canada. Mistake all the way through. You are so lucky to have access to proven designs and engines that are known to work well
in this medium. I didn't have that and am continually paying the price - which has gotten totally out of control. Why you would want to change
something's proven design is totally beyond me. But I'm not an engineer.
I feel you might be better thinking of what you'd want to do with it when finished.
All in my opinion but:
If you don't want a track toy, leave the bec
If you'll get no satisfaction from the easier build, leave the 3ge (or whichever it was)
If this hasn't made you actually pick the V8, go for something completely different to all 3
In fact there's a Morris near me, might be needing some V8 treatment?
Why is it so hard to choose ?
Because you don't know what you want.
End of......
Not that i dont know what i want at all, its that i dont know which i want most lol. subtle difference.
Why do something different? Ive never liked copying?
[Edited on 27/8/11 by coyoteboy]
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure I built a Locost in a year start to finish just because I wanted to build a car from scratch
before I'd left it too late. It's done and gone now but I still potter about with another project in the shed when the mood takes me. If you
spend so long procrastinating you will never get round to doing it, just make a decision and go with it.
I think you're right, in the end I'll undoubtedly enjoy any of them and the build process involved. Really just need to make the decision and work from there. Almost tempted to make a lottery of the decision making process - whichever engine I find in-budget first I'll go with lol.
If I were you, and I am not, I would choose 3 engines, and go with the cheapest available. The things end up costing twice as much as foreseen anyhow,
and you can always add engine mods later (intakes, cams, turbos and all that).
My experience with all types of engineers: computer, mechanical, civil or whatever, is that they tend to get caught up in details, that don't
always need such scrutiny to actually work the thing you're trying to build. Sometimes you don't know what the device can do until you just
go out and use it. Then it can be changed as you like. Just an observation!
I am not good in three dimensions, myself, and don't know how these mechanically inclined people do it. I have a lot of admiration for them,
that's for sure.
quote:
Originally posted by Guinness
quote:
Originally posted by graememk
That is superb!
you'd have to look twice if that came past