If so, at what point do you think that keeping it between the verges became too much of a chore!?
Can a sub-600kg seven-type car have TOO much power for road-use?
If so, at what point do you think that keeping it between the verges became too much of a chore!?
Never, it just runs out of road!
You know you've got enough when your wheel spinning in sixth in the dry
200bhp is the magic number for me! big power cars are impressive, but, honestly, can you use it on the road? "personally", in a straight line yes (motorway) but in the corners (country lanes) i don't think you can
at any cost? no.
With costs though, when the percentage of time you spend at full throttle is so low that the extra expense and wear rate on the engine ceases to make
financial sense.
My poor little BEC carrying your old Aerocharger is 201BHP, absolutely hopeless on the road as much to fast in the real world.... track only now.
It's gets frustrating tickling the throttle when you want to boot it 
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
My poor little BEC carrying your old Aerocharger is 201BHP, absolutely hopeless on the road as much to fast in the real world.... track only now.
It's gets frustrating tickling the throttle when you want to boot it
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
LOL.. is there anyone on this forum who is NOT running a part that used to belong to me!!!!???
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
quote:
Originally posted by mark chandler
My poor little BEC carrying your old Aerocharger is 201BHP, absolutely hopeless on the road as much to fast in the real world.... track only now.
It's gets frustrating tickling the throttle when you want to boot it
LOL.. is there anyone on this forum who is NOT running a part that used to belong to me!!!!???
I'm off to your archive to see if there are any pics of it!
Are you in the market for anything!?
As long as it can put it down no
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Are you in the market for anything!?
quote:
Originally posted by phelpsa
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Are you in the market for anything!?
Do you go requests for buying up very nice parts and selling them on for a fraction of their value? If so, i've got a list...
Don't we all, don't we all
quote:
Originally posted by scootz
Can a sub-600kg seven-type car have TOO much power for road-use?
If so, at what point do you think that keeping it between the verges became too much of a chore!?
I get the feeling there's a very fine line between "a bit of a handful" and "that's f**king dangerous!"
I also get the feeling that a fraction of an inch further is "under a truck"
300bhp was enough for me. Could use all the power in 2nd gear from 2000rpm, took some work to get it to that stage though....
i reckon about 250ish in a 7. mine is floating around that area and its just on the boarder of being too quick for the road, fine on track. its not the power that is the issue its the fact that it is as quick as a zx9r up to 100 and people in normal cars have no idea of how quick it accelerates as they bumble along. At that level of acceleration you have to be very switched on exactly like when your on a bike, the only problem is that a 7 is much bigger than a bike and doesn't fit through tight gaps half as well
Showing my naivety here, but i bought a slicks and wings hill climb car once....1400cc 248hp Powertec Busa circa 310kg....do the maths, its scary!
Some on here may remember my highly amusing attempts at piloting it around a cold greasy Curborough.......spent more time on the grass than the tarmac
Quickly sold it on, as i figured it would kill me before i learnt to control it..... could definately have got round a lot quicker and safer in the
puny STM, and certainly had more fun Things happen too fast when power output exceeds how fast you can think
Al.
Isn't how the power comes in more important than the amount of power?
If it is progressive and controllable then surely it is an irrelevance, you would simply apply as much power as the grip allowed?
Alternatively, use the throttle like a light-switch and buy shares in pirelli (other tyre brands are available)?
quote:
Originally posted by Wadders
Showing my naivety here, but i bought a slicks and wings hill climb car once....1400cc 248hp Powertec Busa circa 310kg....do the maths, its scary! Some on here may remember my highly amusing attempts at piloting it around a cold greasy Curborough.......spent more time on the grass than the tarmac
Quickly sold it on, as i figured it would kill me before i learnt to control it..... could definately have got round a lot quicker and safer in the puny STM, and certainly had more fun
Al.
I knew there would be a lot of naysayers, as in "No, you can never have too much power" - but personally I would say most definitely yes,
particularly if you want the car to be pleasant to drive rather than scare you to death & particularly if you're thinking of using it in
weather other than warm & dry & particularly where road use is concerned.
Personally I would say anything over 350bhp/tonne is pretty much a waste of time for road use in the above circumstances, if you're only
intending use in the warm & dry (hang on, aren't you up in Jockland??? - you guys never get warm & dry for more than about a week a year
do you??? ) then perhaps 400bhp/tonne or so providing it doesn't all arrive in one big lump!
I took Adam from CKC out in the back of my old twin engined car 274bhp (probs less, the low mileage engine had done 34000! ) in around 600kg. He
described it (on the back page of CKC incidentally) as the only car he had ever been out in that had scared him like a big bike does - I think it was
a compliment! But I've never quite been sure - perhaps it was just my driving!
I know of at least one 7 owner (ZX12R engined Formula 27) who won't take the car out if it's below about 5 deg C or if it's damp,
because he says it is just too scary, I'd guess that's about 180bhp (at flywheel) in around 550kgs
How the power is delivered is also important, but probs most important of all is what you actually want out of the car - what you actually want it to
do.
I've got just over 200 in a 680kg car , and virtually never use more than half of it - even on new T1R's it will swap ends on roundabouts if
I give it too much throttle - that has happened as low as 2000rpm in third.......
But.....in a straight line , it is nothing short of awesome - in the three years I've had this engine in , I've only had it close to flat
out once...........over 150 and still accelerating
I intend to put a smaller engine in (something I have been saying for two years....)
Probably true in a normal car, but progressive and controllable don't seem to apply when you're relying on downforce for grip
you could lift the front end of the car off the floor with ease in the garage......and come to think of it the throttle was like a light switch...
light the blue touch paper and go guess i would have got used to it, but it would have been a very expensive learning curve 
Originally posted by onenastyviper
Isn't how the power comes in more important than the amount of power?
If it is progressive and controllable then surely it is an irrelevance, you would simply apply as much power as the grip allowed?
Alternatively, use the throttle like a light-switch and buy shares in pirelli (other tyre brands are available)?
quote:
Originally posted by Wadders
Showing my naivety here, but i bought a slicks and wings hill climb car once....1400cc 248hp Powertec Busa circa 310kg....do the maths, its scary! Some on here may remember my highly amusing attempts at piloting it around a cold greasy Curborough.......spent more time on the grass than the tarmac
Quickly sold it on, as i figured it would kill me before i learnt to control it..... could definately have got round a lot quicker and safer in the puny STM, and certainly had more fun
Al.
The car I'm currently building will weigh in at around 1400 bhp-per-tonne, and I personally think that's too much. But it's each to their own isn't it! (as long as I'm not paying for it!!!)
quote:
Originally posted by russbost
I took Adam from CKC out in the back of my old twin engined car 274bhp (probs less, the low mileage engine had done 34000!
Just to add to what I said and to echo some others, It does depend on the way the engine makes its power. A nice linear N/A engine that just makes more power the further you rev it means you could get away with having HUGE power and still a very useable car.
I love the way that we assume have what it takes to handle the level of power we might be able to afford.
Yes, it can be fed in progressively, but tell me this.
If you're feeding it in progressively and spend little time at wide open throttle, what percentage of the time are you actually using all of the
power ?
I would respectfully suggest that if you spend the vast majority of the time soft pedalling to keep it on the road, it has more power than you're
using. Therefore, it has too much power.
Few of us are champions and champions are the ones who best use all of the power for most of the time.
The rest of us, it's just vanity publishing, isn't it ?
claire t1r's are pap on a car of that weight with that kind of power, i had them on mine and thought they were ok until i put r1r's on it.
now i look back and think how bloody dangerous it was with t1r's on it. i would seriously recommend that you stick r1r's or ad08's on
it as you will have double the grip without the issues of r888's in the wet.
to some extent i agree that power delivery can make a difference but with that much power in a light weight car if you open up the taps fully its
available so quickly you have very little time to think about it let alone worry about how its delivered, its just too quick.
i will give you an example.
when i go to overtake now, im not thinking do i have time to get past what ever im overtaking i am now thinking do i have enough space to slow it down
after the overtake before the next vehicle in front of the one being overtaken.
thats even before i have pulled out for the overtake.
e.g if i were to overtake a car doing 40 on a 60 road. if i kept my foot down fully i could be very easily be doing over 100mph by the time im round
and pulling back in. If there is a car further up the road also doing 40mph i then have a closing speed of 60mph on semi cold brakes that i have to
scrub off before it hit the back of it, then add on top of that thinking about if that car in front is about to turn off or brake suddenly casing me
to brake even harder and you get the idea how far up the road you have to think.
so yes i could have more power the engine will easily make 320bhp on the current turbo. do i want it not sure.... had the car like this for a while
now and although my brain has got quicker im nut sure how much more i can push it.
does the car scare me? yes sometimes when i get carried away. is it a pig to drive slowly? well its not a town car but it will trot along nicely at
a mild pace but nicely tends to be hot hatch quick. stuck in traffic stop start with it is a total nightmare as the gear change and clutch are a bit
heavy compared to a standard setup.
what i do love about the POWERRRRR though is a while ago i come up against a tit in an sl55 amg thinking he was fastest thing on the road. he got put
back in his place good a proper so much so that when i slowed up, rather than give the usual nod most people give he turned on the blinkers and
pointed straight ahead as i waved like a 5 year old.
my bec was too fast really, but i think that was a lack of responsibility on my part. Id drive it like i was on a trackday, and climb out shaking after nipping to the shop for milk. Fortunately i ran out of money and sold it before it all went wrong.
quote:
Originally posted by ashg
claire t1r's are pap on a car of that weight with that kind of power, i had them on mine and thought they were ok until i put r1r's on it. now i look back and think how bloody dangerous it was with t1r's on it. i would seriously recommend that you stick r1r's or ad08's on it as you will have double the grip without the issues of r888's in the wet.
to some extent i agree that power delivery can make a difference but with that much power in a light weight car if you open up the taps fully its available so quickly you have very little time to think about it let alone worry about how its delivered, its just too quick.
i will give you an example.
when i go to overtake now, im not thinking do i have time to get past what ever im overtaking i am now thinking do i have enough space to slow it down after the overtake before the next vehicle in front of the one being overtaken.
thats even before i have pulled out for the overtake.
e.g if i were to overtake a car doing 40 on a 60 road. if i kept my foot down fully i could be very easily be doing over 100mph by the time im round and pulling back in. If there is a car further up the road also doing 40mph i then have a closing speed of 60mph on semi cold brakes that i have to scrub off before it hit the back of it, then add on top of that thinking about if that car in front is about to turn off or brake suddenly casing me to brake even harder and you get the idea how far up the road you have to think.
so yes i could have more power the engine will easily make 320bhp on the current turbo. do i want it not sure.... had the car like this for a while now and although my brain has got quicker im nut sure how much more i can push it.
does the car scare me? yes sometimes when i get carried away. is it a pig to drive slowly? well its not a town car but it will trot along nicely at a mild pace but nicely tends to be hot hatch quick. stuck in traffic stop start with it is a total nightmare as the gear change and clutch are a bit heavy compared to a standard setup.
what i do love about the POWERRRRR though is a while ago i come up against a tit in an sl55 amg thinking he was fastest thing on the road. he got put back in his place good a proper so much so that when i slowed up, rather than give the usual nod most people give he turned on the blinkers and pointed straight ahead as i waved like a 5 year old.
agreed t1r's really are crap, they feel like blocks of wood compared to r1r's. franky if you had put t1r's on your car to start with
you would be sing the r1r song even louder. luckily your a wiser man than i and fitted r1r's from the beginning. it took a serious scare to
make me change my tyres for good ones.
PEOPLE BE WARNED T1R's ARE RUBBISH CHEAP TYRES FOR PEOPLE WITH SLOW HOT HATCHES! if your reading this thread and thinking of building a kitcar
with more than 300bhp/t really consider why you would put cheap every day road car tyres on it.
quote:
Originally posted by franky
quote:
Originally posted by ashg
claire t1r's are pap on a car of that weight with that kind of power, i had them on mine and thought they were ok until i put r1r's on it. now i look back and think how bloody dangerous it was with t1r's on it. i would seriously recommend that you stick r1r's or ad08's on it as you will have double the grip without the issues of r888's in the wet.
to some extent i agree that power delivery can make a difference but with that much power in a light weight car if you open up the taps fully its available so quickly you have very little time to think about it let alone worry about how its delivered, its just too quick.
i will give you an example.
when i go to overtake now, im not thinking do i have time to get past what ever im overtaking i am now thinking do i have enough space to slow it down after the overtake before the next vehicle in front of the one being overtaken.
thats even before i have pulled out for the overtake.
e.g if i were to overtake a car doing 40 on a 60 road. if i kept my foot down fully i could be very easily be doing over 100mph by the time im round and pulling back in. If there is a car further up the road also doing 40mph i then have a closing speed of 60mph on semi cold brakes that i have to scrub off before it hit the back of it, then add on top of that thinking about if that car in front is about to turn off or brake suddenly casing me to brake even harder and you get the idea how far up the road you have to think.
so yes i could have more power the engine will easily make 320bhp on the current turbo. do i want it not sure.... had the car like this for a while now and although my brain has got quicker im nut sure how much more i can push it.
does the car scare me? yes sometimes when i get carried away. is it a pig to drive slowly? well its not a town car but it will trot along nicely at a mild pace but nicely tends to be hot hatch quick. stuck in traffic stop start with it is a total nightmare as the gear change and clutch are a bit heavy compared to a standard setup.
what i do love about the POWERRRRR though is a while ago i come up against a tit in an sl55 amg thinking he was fastest thing on the road. he got put back in his place good a proper so much so that when i slowed up, rather than give the usual nod most people give he turned on the blinkers and pointed straight ahead as i waved like a 5 year old.
+1 to r1r's. Great magical bits of circular rubber.
lol little bit chubby are we it can be forgiven for the noise that bmw engine makes on full chat.
my car is just sub 600. the only thing i have found so far that is a production car is a chap at works v10 r8 up to 70-80 odd we are pretty similar
as is our power to weight ratio but after that he can destroy me as aero starts getting involved. out of a bend i get him every time all the way up
to 100 odd as he just cant carry the speed being 3 times heavier than me. its all swings and roundabouts at the end of day.
as wadders discovered if you want mental power/speed without the extra weight then aero is the only thing that will achieve it. just remember to order
a pair of steel balls to go with it.
[Edited on 5/10/2011 by ashg]
quote:
Originally posted by ashg
PEOPLE BE WARNED T1R's ARE RUBBISH CHEAP TYRES FOR PEOPLE WITH SLOW HOT HATCHES! if your reading this thread and thinking of building a kitcar with more than 300bhp/t really consider why you would put cheap every day road car tyres on it.
maybe...... but i strongly believe they are not suitable for such light cars. r1r's will do about 6k driven hard with a few track days thrown in. dont know where you got £400 from i paid £270 for my last set and they are worth every penny. don't understand how people think its ok to spend a lot of money on a high performance car then fit crap tyres to it. tyres are the only thing that keep you on the road and are the single biggest handling improvement anyone can make. when someone says their car doesn't handle i think we should be asking them what tyres they have as it never seems to be asked
I think it does depend on when you use your car and how the power comes in.
If you want to use it all year, wet,icy etc 200bhp/t is more than enough on the bad days, not enough on the good days.
If you will only occasionally use it on wet roads 350bhp/t is enough.
Both those I'm assuming the power comes in nicely - N/a or supercharged engines.
Although I like to drive fast, the sorts of speed you will be doing to use more than that amount of power is really not suitable for road use in the
uk (this was a question for 'on the road'. Saying 'its my risk' is fine, but if you ever talk to someone who has been in an
accident where someone else has dies you'll know they almost always feel some blame for it. Statistics show that the number of accidents doubles
for every 10mph extra AVERAGE speed you carry up to about 80mph, where it starts to go up in a truley exponential way. Once you are going at 50mph
above another road user in front of you, you will be out of their 'perceived risk' range, i.e when they want to change lanes/overtake, they
see you in the mirror , but you're so far away they assume there is no danger and pull out anyway, and you have to brake very hard or swerve to
avoid them. I often see bikers doing this and getting irate with some car thats pulled out in front of them - sorry but if you're doing 140 on a
motorway, where others are dong 80 you will be in a position where most people will assume you're too far away to worry about, when you are in
fact at a point beyond your minimum comfortable braking distance, and where you will have to take evasive action if they pull out.
End of lecture
Regards
Hugh
quote:
I love the way that we assume have what it takes to handle the level of power we might be able to afford. Yes, it can be fed in progressively, but tell me this. If you're feeding it in progressively and spend little time at wide open throttle, what percentage of the time are you actually using all of the power ? I would respectfully suggest that if you spend the vast majority of the time soft pedalling to keep it on the road, it has more power than you're using. Therefore, it has too much power. Few of us are champions and champions are the ones who best use all of the power for most of the time. The rest of us, it's just vanity publishing, isn't it ?
quote:
Originally posted by D Beddows
quote:
I love the way that we assume have what it takes to handle the level of power we might be able to afford. Yes, it can be fed in progressively, but tell me this. If you're feeding it in progressively and spend little time at wide open throttle, what percentage of the time are you actually using all of the power ? I would respectfully suggest that if you spend the vast majority of the time soft pedalling to keep it on the road, it has more power than you're using. Therefore, it has too much power. Few of us are champions and champions are the ones who best use all of the power for most of the time. The rest of us, it's just vanity publishing, isn't it ?
I 100% agree with you Zil but you get shot to pieces round here don't you if you dare suggest people don't have the same innate level of driving skill and car control as Ayrton Senna in his prime
Lol - as has been proved many times a LOT of people for quite a while reach their limit before the car does on a track with 89bhp ish of 1300 xflow
power in a 750MC Locost................ and a fair few of them drive very fast road cars..........
Yes you learn to handle that level of power but anyone who says that a genuine 200bhp in a 600kg car isn't quick enough for them should have been
snapped up by a F3 team at the very least
A fews years ago, I was running an old ex-plod Volvo T5 and my chum had a Blade engined 7. The 7 could outrun the Volvo up to 110mph but then the
Volvo would catch up. With two fatties in the 7, the Volvo was all over it, even loaded with two fatties and a mid-fatty. So the Volvo had 310bhp and
weighed the same as Coventry whereas the 7's power to weight ratio was ruined by pies. The 7 was nice and quick and very usable, but not stupid
fast and could certainly hold its own on the track.
Fast forward a few years, my plastic car weighs about 480kg and makes around 200bhp. At its recent trip up the strip at Santa Pod, I was changing up
into fourth at 101mph as I passed the gantry and still chirruping the tyres. Getting the car moving off the line was very tricky as the Atlas diff
sent all those horses out under one tyre, which came out as smoke. Even setting off in second didn't help. Setting off in third made the clutch
slip. I have some new coilovers to replace the knackered ones to stop the axle from bouncing and a de-dion with lsd to fit next. That should get the
power to the wheels but much more than the 200 bhp, imho, would be wasted.
If you think of it like a bike, I don't see how you can do too much damage: nobody sees you, and you DO have too much power if you floor it everywhere. Mine has about 180, and I am very nervous about putting it on the road. I've never had it out of second gear at autoslalom and that is scary enough (max 100 km/h, 50 mph).
More info needed please ............:-)
]Originally posted by Steve Hignett
The car I'm currently building will weigh in at around 1400 bhp-per-tonne, and I personally think that's too much. But it's each to
their own isn't it! (as long as I'm not paying for it!!!)