SVA and towing (with the SVA'd car)
ChrisW - 6/7/12 at 02:29 PM
Just thinking out loud, as you do...
I believe that to tow legally, cars from a certain year onwards have to have a max towing weight specified on the VIN. So, what happens when a car
that requires an SVA, let's say a kit for now, wants to have a tow bar? Is it possible? Who decides what the maximum weight is?
Now, assuming it's possible for an SVA to 'approve' a car for this, what would happen if you took an already type approved car for an
SVA? Would they test it? Would it be possible to change the (towing) parameters from those under which the manufacturer tested it? What about
adding a tow weight to a vehicle that hasn't got one?
Or is there another solution for this that I don't know about?
Any thoughts from the collective knowledge that is LB? 
Chris
[Edited on 6/7/2012 by ChrisW]
coyoteboy - 6/7/12 at 02:40 PM
I hope you're thinking towing something _very_ light. 
wilkingj - 6/7/12 at 03:28 PM
The cars not the big problem, its finding an approved towbar
It will depend on what year the vehicle was registered.
If the Car is registered post 1st August 1998 and its a real Biggy is finding a towbar that has an approval stamp / plate that fits and is approved
for a Se7en.
After a that date ALL towbars need to have a manufacturers plate, and to have a plate the manufacturer has to have it tested / approved which costs
the proverbial arm and a leg. Basically I am fairly sure that Home made towbars are now a thing of the past.
This is the stumbling block.
I suspect you would get away with it on a vehicle that was registered before the law on towbars changed. However for cars registered after that date,
you ar on a hiding to nothing if you are stopped and its checked.
Ah found it...
European Law now states that all light passenger vehicles registered on or after 1st August 1998 require a type approved towbar tested to EC94/20 and
towball with suitable D&S value. This is not retrospective and does not affect any vehicle registered before this date. Other vehicles not subject
to type approval are ~ commercial vehicles, car derived vans and motor caravans.
http://www.solent-towbars.co.uk/towbar-legislation-law.html
I dont think this will be very helpful to what you want to do.
EDIT:
There are also Driving Licence restrictions / regulatiosn these days.
If you passed your driving test after 1st january 1997 then you will have restrictions on what you can tow ( well at least within what your licence
covers), if you are in doubt then refer to the DVLA website.
LINKY
Oh.... and there are even more restrictions coming in on Jan 19, 2013. Which is another reason to pass your driving test sooner rather than later!
This will affect the younger people on here. Us Old farts are not affected
[Edited on 6/7/2012 by wilkingj]
ChrisW - 6/7/12 at 04:07 PM
Hi all
The tow bar would be type approved for the A6, but not specifically for the RS version. The problem is that the RS6, despite being the same car,
doesn't have the towing weight stamped on the VIN.
Max towing weight on the A6 is about 2000kg. I can't see any reason why the RS6 would be any less, other than having to be careful not to stamp
on the right hand pedal, but that's the case in my diesel anyway. Even unleashing the torque that my usual car produces with a trailer on the
back isn't going to be to sensible so I'm already used to being careful off the line.
I've already sorted the license problem, passed B+E earlier in the year so at least that's no longer an issue.
Chris
Westy1994 - 6/7/12 at 04:13 PM
Seems rather ironic that a Locost owner who builds his entire chassis from scratch , can't fit a towbar that he has also made himself, to a post
Aug 1998 car... But then the whats being in the EU has done do us.......
I have thought myself about having a towbar on the 7, I already have a very small trailer I use with my tintop, and my end goal as I get older is to
ditch the tintop and use the 7 all the time, having a small trailer would be rather useful. My car is Pre 1998, so I guess I am lucky there.
Rich
Confused but excited. - 6/7/12 at 05:53 PM
How would this affect a car that is newly IVA'd and registered but given an age related plate?
jeffw - 6/7/12 at 07:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW
Hi all
The tow bar would be type approved for the A6, but not specifically for the RS version. The problem is that the RS6, despite being the same car,
doesn't have the towing weight stamped on the VIN.
Max towing weight on the A6 is about 2000kg. I can't see any reason why the RS6 would be any less, other than having to be careful not to stamp
on the right hand pedal, but that's the case in my diesel anyway. Even unleashing the torque that my usual car produces with a trailer on the
back isn't going to be to sensible so I'm already used to being careful off the line.
I've already sorted the license problem, passed B+E earlier in the year so at least that's no longer an issue.
Chris
The RS6 (and all RS variants) are not approved by Audi for towing. Hence why it is not on the VIN and why there are no approved towbars.
[Edited on 6/7/12 by jeffw]
ChrisW - 6/7/12 at 07:23 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
The RS6 (and all RS variants) are not approved by Audi for towing. Hence why it is not on the VIN and why there are no approved towbars.
Isn't that what I've said all along?
My point was whether a single vehicle could be examined and reclassified as being able to tow, perhaps by putting it through an SVA.
AFAIK tow bars only have to be approved, not approved specifically for one car, so the A6 tow bar would be suitable as it's approved and fits the
RS6. The problem is the car itself.
Chris
Westy1994 - 6/7/12 at 07:33 PM
I think this comes down to why the Audi is NOT certified to use one in the first place, seems odd a major car maker has such a restriction placed upon
it.
From some reading on the net, it suggests the gearbox is the issue, and would not be covered by a warranty if one was still in force.
ETA - link I was refering to here
[Edited on 6/7/12 by Westy1994]
jacko - 6/7/12 at 07:36 PM
I was thinking of fitting a bar on my MK indy so asked vosa about this they said if it was not sva'ed to have a tow bar it would need to be
checked by vosa to have one
I never fitted a bar + as said where can you get a approved bar to fit a 7 type car
jeffw - 6/7/12 at 08:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
The RS6 (and all RS variants) are not approved by Audi for towing. Hence why it is not on the VIN and why there are no approved towbars.
Isn't that what I've said all along?
My point was whether a single vehicle could be examined and reclassified as being able to tow, perhaps by putting it through an SVA.
AFAIK tow bars only have to be approved, not approved specifically for one car, so the A6 tow bar would be suitable as it's approved and fits the
RS6. The problem is the car itself.
Chris
Audi explicitly say the RS models are not suitable to tow. Why would putting one example through SVA change that? I am aware that the cooling
systems, gearboxes and suspension arms (where they are aluminium) are the issues.
ChrisW - 6/7/12 at 09:28 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
Audi explicitly say the RS models are not suitable to tow. Why would putting one example through SVA change that? I am aware that the cooling
systems, gearboxes and suspension arms (where they are aluminium) are the issues.
I don't believe that they're not suitable. More that Audi don't want the image of RS models towing, or possibly that in extreme cases
damage could result to the car by the use of excess power.
The A6 is suitable for towing. The RS6 is just the A6 with a bigger engine, bigger brakes and bigger wheels. Why would that suddenly make it
unsuitable?
If it can deal with the extra load put on it by being capable of ~170mph (with the limiter removed, which Audi will do if you pay them) as opposed to
140mph that the top of the range diesel is limited to I'm sure it can't be too brittle to deal with a trailer on the back at 60mph.
Chris
vanepico - 6/7/12 at 09:34 PM
At what point does a chassis member become a tow bar? surely if you just bolted a tow ball onto a 'plate that was already there' that was
strong enough, would that be ok?
Surely the car could easily tow what the donor could.
Westy1994 - 6/7/12 at 09:37 PM
^^^
In that case I would be contacting Audi themselves and finding out exactly why they will not allow a trailer to be towed, then ask what parts ( if
any) are needed for it to comply, then finally get them to give you a certificate to say the car now complies.
I doubt very much they would do any of this however..
This is not like a kitcar sva issue, your car has already been tested and approved for certain things, towing not being one of them...
matt_gsxr - 6/7/12 at 09:48 PM
As Jeff says
http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evolongtermtests/228438/audi_rs6.html
I can't see anyones gearbox overheating in the weather we've been having.
Westy1994 - 6/7/12 at 09:52 PM
Interesting acticle Matt, you would have thought then that Audi would have designed an oil cooler kit for the fluid then, maybe they really dont want
these cars to be seen towing afterall, which I am sure has put a few folks off buying them...
jeffw - 7/7/12 at 06:36 AM
The B5 RS4 would have issues with the clutch, gearbox & aluminium arms compared with the B5 S4. The C5 RS6 (which I assume Chris is referring to)
would have issues with DRL suspension, gearbox/torque converter and is marginal on cooling at the best of times (Oil and Water).
Of course there is nothing to stop you buying a Towbar for the base model and fitting it. I don't know if you would have a problem if stopped
but you could always take the badges off.
ChrisW - 7/7/12 at 08:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
The B5 RS4 would have issues with the clutch, gearbox & aluminium arms compared with the B5 S4. The C5 RS6 (which I assume Chris is referring to)
would have issues with DRL suspension, gearbox/torque converter and is marginal on cooling at the best of times (Oil and Water).
Of course there is nothing to stop you buying a Towbar for the base model and fitting it. I don't know if you would have a problem if stopped
but you could always take the badges off.
Thanks Jeff. The DRL suspension isn't something I'd considered, but looking at the brochure for my car (I'm thinking C6, not C5) it
seems I could have spec'd the suspension on mine (3.0 Diesel) and it makes no mention that doing so deletes the tow bar.
On my existing car there are some options in vagcom to tell the car it has a tow bar. I know this because the dealer 'forgot' to set two of
the three when they fitted the tow bar. I had a mate recode it properly when I'd realised, and one of the options was to tell the suspension
controller that a tow bar was fitted. I'd assume the RS6 is the same.
In addition, I believe the gearbox on the RS6 is the same as on all the A6 Quattro Autos, and therefore the same as the one in my car. The only
difference being that in the RS it has to deal with twice the torque. Now, as I see it, unless you actually unleash more torque with a heavy right
foot there should be no more strain on the gearbox regardless of what engine is in front of it. My point from earlier being that I wouldn't
dream of burying my foot on my car with a trailer on the back - it would just take off too quick to be safe with a big trailer - so why would I do it
just because I have the RS version?
In other words, surely the load on the gearbox is proportional to the rate of acceleration, not the potential rate of acceleration should I be silly
enough to try it?
Chris
jeffw - 7/7/12 at 09:00 AM
The C6 has a number of issues but a lot less than the C5 variant. There have been a number of engine failures which have been replaced FOC.
The only issue I can see is cooling (oil and water), remember the C6 RS6 V10 is dry-sumped as well. Obviously a Towbar fitted to a C6 RS6 would
instantly invalidate any warranty and would significantly reduce the resale value if you left it on. I tow with my A6 3.0TDi (when it was working)
which, as you say, is basically the same car. If it is what you want to do, go for it. The fuel usage will have comedic value if nothing else...
[Edited on 7/7/12 by jeffw]
[Edited on 7/7/12 by jeffw]
jeffw - 7/7/12 at 09:17 AM
And if you get bored there is always the 800PS conversion offered by my good friends at MRC Tuning
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmxgUi7YmNg
Which will then be this fast....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SxL6if8_PZw&feature=related
JimSpencer - 7/7/12 at 11:08 AM
Hi
Unfortunatly if the vehicle isn't type approved for towing, you'll break the road traffic act if you even fit a towbar to it, let alone be
so bold as to use it..
This then leads onto other complications such as:-
'No Insurance'
A friend of mine found this out the hard way when a gentleman from the constabulary educated him reference the above - on the hard shoulder of the M4
with his race car on the trailer - as it apparently then invalidates ones insurance
Made it very interesting to get the trailer home and added a handful of points too..
Given the attention folk get when towing (due to the sheer number towing overweight/wrong licence etc etc), the only thing to do is:-
Flog it and buy another car.
ChrisW - 7/7/12 at 06:52 PM
quote:
Originally posted by JimSpencer
Unfortunatly if the vehicle isn't type approved for towing, you'll break the road traffic act if you even fit a towbar to it, let alone be
so bold as to use it..
I'm aware of this, and that is the point of the post!! 
The question I'm asking is whether the car can be reclassified somehow, perhaps via an SVA test, to be suitable for towing.
It seems that if a kit car is taken for an SVA with a type approved tow bar fitted it can be classified to tow. My logic is therefore that if a
regular car was taken for the test with a type approved bar could it be classified to tow too?
What I don't know is whether the SVA station would test the vehicle if it was obvious that it was already type approved.
There must be some case where a vehicle is imported, needs an SVA test, and is fitted with a tow bar. What happens in this case?
Chris
vanepico - 7/7/12 at 07:42 PM
From what I've been reading up, a tow bar is type approved for a certain vehicle,it will have a 'D' value stamped on which is
calculated from gross vehicle weight and gross trailer weight, this must be stamped on the tow bar.
I'm wondering whether a kit car would count as a foreign import, cause you get an IVA for a foreign car don't you.
"Non M1 vehicles, light commercial vehicles and private imports from outside the EEC do not need Approved Towbars; however, most car and some
Light Commercial Vehicles such as vans commonly use the Type Approved Towbar."
I too wanted to put a tow bar on a kit car, if you could make a nice little trailer-tent or something to go touring in, that'd be great fun 
jeffw - 7/7/12 at 07:43 PM
I think you are grasping at straws. If you can afford a C6 RS6 (£35K plus) you can afford a cheap tow car.
[Edited on 7/7/12 by jeffw]
SteveWalker - 7/7/12 at 07:43 PM
I know that the EU laws are similar to laws that have existed in Germany for a long time. I know of a German who contacted Volkswagen when he wanted
to tow a caravan that was over his car's stated limit and they issued a letter authorising him to do so.
ChrisW - 7/7/12 at 08:33 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
I think you are grasping at straws. If you can afford a C6 RS6 (£35K plus) you can afford a cheap tow car.
[Edited on 7/7/12 by jeffw]
Indeed. But that's where the dilema comes. Let me explain:
If I was going to have a tow car and it was capable of pulling a decent sized trailer (I'm talking 2000kg upwards) it would be a big car or maybe
a 4x4. Maybe an A6 diesel, or a 5-series, or something like that.
With that on the drive, why would I need an RS6 too? I'd be better off with a sports car, or a fast coupe, not an uber saloon. Let's say
an RS5, or a TT RS, just to keep it Audi for now.
But if I had one of those when would I drive the MR2? I've had for years and spent a load of money on it. Probably never, so I might as well
sell it, despite it being worth nothing.
So let's say I do that, what would I get my hands dirty on? A fast modern coupe will be completely useless for weekend tinkering, and it'd
be worth so much I'd be frightened to drive it 'properly'.
It's all a dilema, and one that I've been round and round on trying to work out what to do. The ideal answer is make the RS6 tow trailers
so that it could be my all-rounder, daily drive, sensible car. Or just forget Audi and buy an M5 instead, as BMW aren't so precious about tow
bars on their M models as Audi are on their RS's.
Chris
Volvorsport - 7/7/12 at 08:47 PM
campervans and motorhomes have their chassis re-plated for extra weight when using air suspension , i suppose you could try to re plate it ... but
dont hold your breath.....
jeffw - 7/7/12 at 08:50 PM
A6 C6 is limited to around 1900Kg.
ChrisW - 7/7/12 at 08:53 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jeffw
A6 C6 is limited to around 1900Kg.
If you say so....! Not saying you're wrong, I know it's around 2000kg, but I'd have to go and look at the plate to be sure!
FWIW that's 'enough', but a little more would be nice.
Chris
JimSpencer - 7/7/12 at 09:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW
quote:
Originally posted by JimSpencer
Unfortunatly if the vehicle isn't type approved for towing, you'll break the road traffic act if you even fit a towbar to it, let alone be
so bold as to use it..
I'm aware of this, and that is the point of the post!! Chris
My humble apologies - though i've re-read your first post half a dozen times now and i still don't read that into it - must be me..
Short answer then is:-
No - you're stuffed.
Vehicle is already type approved - you would have to modify it drastically until it met the criteria required for an IVA - but quite how VOSA would
test a mass produced monoque with a 'chassis' modification, for example, beats me
ChrisW - 7/7/12 at 10:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisW
What about adding a tow weight to a vehicle that hasn't got one?
^^^ Doesn't that explain what I'm trying to do??
Anyway, the 're-plating' idea may have got me onto something. It seems I might be able to apply for a 'design weight
certificate'. To do so I must "include evidence of the new design weight i.e. documentation from the manufacturer or converter or a copy of
a revised manufacturer’s plate." It sounds like VOSA would have to inspect the vehicle, but if their inspector could be convinced that the tow
bar was type approved (it would be) and that the modifications allowed the car to support the weight (there would basically be none other than the bar
itself) they should be able to issue the certificate showing the stock A6 towing weights.
At that point it seems that the paperwork could be sent off to the DVLA who would issue a new V5 with the new weights on it from the design weight
certificate.
The only sticking point is that this is intended to be for HGVs rather than cars. However, the legislation doesn't specify that a car can't
have this done.
Might be worth a call to VOSA/DVLA on Monday, although I won't hold my breath that they will know what's going on either!
Chris
morcus - 8/7/12 at 05:51 AM
I'm sure I read on here some time ago that the ford st220 mondeo couldn't tow for the same reason but that trying to do so would put the
engine into limp mode with any real weight being pulled. did a search and it's on page two
HERE but the whole thread is probably relevent.
On a side note, how can the police check if your car trailer rig is legit, especially regarding weight?
slingshot2000 - 8/7/12 at 09:28 AM
quote:
Originally posted by morcus
On a side note, how can the police check if your car trailer rig is legit, especially regarding weight?
Very easily! They can escort you to the closest weighbridge !
Regards
Jon
ChrisW - 8/7/12 at 10:05 AM
There is a VIN plate that shows the maximum vehicle weight and maximum gross weight. If they're the same there is 0 allowable for a trailer, aka
you're not allowed to pull one.
Chris
owelly - 8/7/12 at 10:44 AM
My chum recently got a ticket for towing an empty trailer. The plod puter told them what the kerb weight was and the max authorised mass. The trailer
was plated to carry 2600kg. His vehicle was allowed to drag 1900kg so he got a ticket. The BiB don't need to weigh your rig to issue a tixket!
Lesson learnt.
ChrisW - 8/7/12 at 11:38 AM
Eh? The MAM of the trailer (ie max weight it can possibly carry) only matters for the license doesn't it?
As far as I know the gross weight permissable by the car is the actual weight of the trailer, not the max it could carry.
Did he have a post-97 license and no B+E perhaps?
Chris