coyoteboy
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| posted on 18/10/10 at 11:23 PM |
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I'm in no rush, so ultimately any engine, but I'd like to keep the powerplant reasonably priced. I've spoken to a few suppliers who
can get me the V8 and tranny for 7-800 with reasonably low miles. But I could get a full donor car for 500 (with issues easy to fix) if I went with
the 3S engine. Obviously need to add a few hundred on for ECU and a few sensors but I have most of these already from previous projects.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 10:13 AM |
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Still haven't made a decision on this, I'm driving myself nuts!
Narrowed it down to the audi V8 (mid rear longitudinal), a 3S-GTE transverse or a zzr1100 turbo with a chain drive I think, but as the decision has an
emotional portion I'm screwed lol. The kid in me want's the V8 for the looks and the noise. The sensible person in me wants the 3S because
I know it, know how to get 300hp from it easily and think it'd be the easiest job (apart from anything I could just drop my current maps onto it
from my tin top) and the nut in me wants the turbo bike engine for weight and cornering reasons.
The realist in me thinks I could do all of them fairly neatly and probably all of them will be beyond my skill levels for driving  and since each
will deliver a different project route and different results I want to do all of them. 
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steve m
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 10:25 AM |
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Its taken you 10 months, to still not be deceided what to build?
personly o would not bother
Steve
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Miks15
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 10:33 AM |
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I know im not you but my thoughts...
Go with the mr2 lump. Considering youre going with atom-esque shape and chassis style, then why not use the same kind of logic as the atom. This used
a 2.0 car engine, albeit from a civic. But charged up putting out around 300BHP (IIRC). This car has proved its silly quick doing 60 under 3 secs and
lap times etc. So why not copy what others have already done?
This will give better reliabilty over a bike engine and a shed loads of torque compared to the bike engine. And personally i think the V8 lump and box
would be too heavy in the back of a exo car. Yes it would look good, sound good and give huge bragging rights. But would probably also be harder to
set up etc.
I say stick with the same design concept that has been proven by ariel.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 11:02 AM |
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quote:
Its taken you 10 months, to still not be deceided what to build? personly o would not bother
Surprisingly not my primary concern in life and something I want to do properly, not on a whim. Each to his own eh!  Better thinking about it for a
while and building the right thing than just using a known solution or picking one at random and find out out later you didn't want that. To be
fair I've pretty much researched the hell out of every option I have so I know once I choose exactly what I'm doing!
Indeed the atom-style has been proved but maybe thats a reason not to do it, but then all configs have been done I suppose. The Mr2 engine is notably
heavier than the honda version, so hanging it out back makes it more of a concern and the lure of a naturally aspirated v8 is fairly strong with
linear power delivery and the ability to run open stacks and throttle bodies and work some wonders with creative injector arrangements. But then with
8 cyls everything costs twice as much  Bike engine provides "light and nuts" which is the feel I enjoy when driving, but I can't
accurately quantify the difference. My initial projections put the V8 car about 100kg heavier, which isn't a lot for the fun, but it'd
naturally be a longer wider car.
I just keep going round in circles because, ultimately, I want it all
[Edited on 26/8/11 by coyoteboy]
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adithorp
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 11:25 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
Still haven't made a decision on this, I'm driving myself nuts!
How do you think the rest of us feel?
If the rest of the decisions take as long as this one, the rest of us will be driving around in hover cars before you weld the first bits of chassis
together. I'm tempted to say I'd bear my arse in the main hall at Stoneleigh if it even gets built, but I suspect I'll be confined
to an old folks home before that.
"A witty saying proves nothing" Voltaire
http://jpsc.org.uk/forum/
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D Beddows
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 11:48 AM |
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There is also the problem that as it's taken you 10 months to get nowhere, by the time you've decided on an engine, built half a chassis
to fit it etc etc there will be a new 'super' engine engine/gizmo you really REALLY want instead and you'll have to start pretty
much from scratch again..............
I believe Scootz knows all about this kind of 'loop to nowhere' limbo as well
For what it's worth I think you should use the most complex/visually impressive/unusual engine in your list (whichever it may be). I suspect
from reading your posts that people being impressed with the car while it's parked at a show or whatever is slightly more important to you than
outright handling and performance. Nothing wrong with that, not my thing personally but it wont be my car either
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 12:36 PM |
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quote:
How do you think the rest of us feel?
Fairly sure the rest of you don't have any vested interest in it so it doesn't really matter much to you I'm actually pretty
shocked at the attitude on here to be honest. A) to assume it's the sole thing someone thinks about and should have had a decision on in a
weekend, and b) to put so little thought into the matter seems a bit mental. It's a pretty big task to undertake with a hefty financial and time
investment - it needs thought to plan it right and in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter if it takes an extra 6 months to make final
choices and plans - most of the 7-esque builds I've seen on here have been 3-4 years /build/ work - I can't even begin to understand the
reasoning behind that. Once decisions are made it takes feck all time to make a chassis and fit the parts if they're all standard-ish parts,
it's the design and planning (particularly of all new) that are difficult. But then I forget most people on here just work from other peoples
plans and stick to known solutions. This is a long term project which will take a couple of years to design and build properly and will be fitted
around about 4 other fairly time-demanding hobbies.
quote:
There is also the problem that as it's taken you 10 months to get nowhere, by the time you've decided on an engine, built half a chassis
to fit it etc etc there will be a new 'super' engine engine/gizmo you really REALLY want instead and you'll have to start pretty
much from scratch again..............
Not really, once I've selected a route that's the route and it'll be done.
quote:
I suspect from reading your posts that people being impressed with the car while it's parked at a show or whatever is slightly more important to
you than outright handling and performance.
I've no idea where you get that idea from - I'm almost wholely function over form and genuinely don't give a poo what other people
think about my cars, so you mis-judged. I'm an engineer, I like a challenge and to fit something a bit different, that doesn't mean I
don't care how how well it works or just want it to look nice - that's idiotic. I know the relative merits of each engine, I can predict
to some degree their performance, but as an "at some point I'll start this" project I've not finished the emotional decision
making process which is do I want to satiate the kid in me or the driver in me, or go for the average and feel a bit like I've not really done
anything fun and new but have a working fast car quickly. I guess I was just looking for a little encouragement/banter, rather than a "you
useless git, you'll never do it anyway" - not exactly the friendly attitude I'd expect from a bunch of similar minded folk.
[Edited on 26/8/11 by coyoteboy]
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sprouts-car
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 12:39 PM |
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I agree with you coyoteboy.
It takes as long as it takes. Do something different, do something fun and do it with a good plan.
Build blog
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RK
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 12:56 PM |
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It's just that talking about building, and actually finishing a car are quite different. We like to see finished or at least, projects
progressing. That's just part of the deal around here I think. Unless one is an engineer or professional mechanic, it takes a lot longer than
you think to actually FINISH something. It always looks simple from the outside, but for most people, it's quite a challenge, unless they have
bought a ready-to-go kit like Westerham or something.
It also costs a fortune no matter which way you look at it: time = money and all that: Less time = more money. More time = less money.
[Edited on 26/8/11 by RK]
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D Beddows
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 01:36 PM |
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OK - I misjudged . For me cars are for driving not spending years agonising over what to build (unless you haven't got the money or time to
actualy build it yet) and then years building - but each to their own.
You say you want primarily a road car and you want it to be a a drivers car yet all the BHP figures you mention will give you a car with a bhp/ton
figure well in excess of anything you can practically use on Britains roads so you will have a blisteringly fast car you'll have to drive around
on half throttle all the time.....not worth the time/money if you ask me! Plus if it's a primarily a road car there will be compromises that
you'll have to make which will blunt it's performance as a track car and vis versa if built as a track car........
To be honest there is no answer to your problem - personally I would look into a high revving lightweight car engine with the potential for 200-250bhp
and, although still a compromise, it should combine most of the best attributes of all your other options AND you will stand more chance of being able
to drive it somewhere close to it's potential on the roads and/or track.
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Fred W B
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 04:07 PM |
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quote:
Once decisions are made it takes feck all time to make a chassis and fit the parts if they're all standard-ish parts, it's the design and
planning (particularly of all new) that are difficult. But then I forget most people on here just work from other peoples plans and stick to known
solutions. This is a long term project which will take a couple of years to design and build properly and will be fitted around about 4 other fairly
time-demanding hobbies.
Good luck with that time scale! With a scratch build (in hobby time) 2 years is a very short term project.
With a scratch build, deciding on the engine is easy compared to some of the decisions to be made on suspension geometry, packaging, material
selection, styling etc. etc.
Ive been meaning to start a thread asking people who have completed scratch builds (meaning building the chassis) to post now long they were busy for.
In the years I've been here it's only been a few, if you consider non 7 styles.
Cheers
Fred W B
[Edited on 26/8/11 by Fred W B]
You can do it quickly. You can do it cheap. You can do it right. – Pick any two.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 04:45 PM |
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Hi Fred,
Yep, it's a fairly short time and "a couple" was "nearer 2 than 5" rather than "2 years" but I know where
you're coming from. I do have a little experience building single seaters and know where the pitfalls are (apart from the IVA/legal side of
things) and what's possible, and where the major PITA's lie, though I'm far from an expert. I also have access to some fairly decent
machine tools which will help I would, however, say that the engine choice is absolutely pivotal on the whole car design philosophy though - the
packaging, suspension, everything else is affected by it to a great degree so it needs to be right first. Once I finally get the decision made I can
move on to suspension/steering and then finally chassis and the rest. I'm fortunate to have contact with some pretty good chassis/suspension
knowledge too so I have help I can call on there, but for me the end result is only part of the fun - the design process will be at least 50% of the
entertainment to me. I'd rather build/design things than drive them TBH, though I do love driving!
[Edited on 26/8/11 by coyoteboy]
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RK
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 05:07 PM |
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Can I remind you that a 7 style car is a great big compromise no matter how you slice it? It does not handle like a single seater, nor like a normal
road car. So I would hate to see someone proceed down a path of trying to make a silk purse from a sow's ear. Bad analogy... but you get the
drift.
Just speaking for myself, the car has been a nightmare. Nothing short of that. I went down a "let's try this" because that's
what was available to me in Canada. Mistake all the way through. You are so lucky to have access to proven designs and engines that are known to work
well in this medium. I didn't have that and am continually paying the price - which has gotten totally out of control. Why you would want to
change something's proven design is totally beyond me. But I'm not an engineer.
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Ninehigh
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| posted on 26/8/11 at 09:33 PM |
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I feel you might be better thinking of what you'd want to do with it when finished.
All in my opinion but:
If you don't want a track toy, leave the bec
If you'll get no satisfaction from the easier build, leave the 3ge (or whichever it was)
If this hasn't made you actually pick the V8, go for something completely different to all 3
In fact there's a Morris near me, might be needing some V8 treatment?
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Macbeast
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| posted on 27/8/11 at 04:12 AM |
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Why is it so hard to choose ?
Because you don't know what you want.
End of......
I'm addicted to brake fluid, but I can stop anytime.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 27/8/11 at 10:26 AM |
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Not that i dont know what i want at all, its that i dont know which i want most lol. subtle difference.
Why do something different? Ive never liked copying?
[Edited on 27/8/11 by coyoteboy]
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Peteff
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| posted on 27/8/11 at 12:04 PM |
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I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure I built a Locost in a year start to finish just because I wanted to build a car from scratch
before I'd left it too late. It's done and gone now but I still potter about with another project in the shed when the mood takes me. If
you spend so long procrastinating you will never get round to doing it, just make a decision and go with it.
yours, Pete
I went into the RSPCA office the other day. It was so small you could hardly swing a cat in there.
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 27/8/11 at 12:20 PM |
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I think you're right, in the end I'll undoubtedly enjoy any of them and the build process involved. Really just need to make the decision
and work from there. Almost tempted to make a lottery of the decision making process - whichever engine I find in-budget first I'll go with lol.
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RK
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| posted on 27/8/11 at 02:29 PM |
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If I were you, and I am not, I would choose 3 engines, and go with the cheapest available. The things end up costing twice as much as foreseen anyhow,
and you can always add engine mods later (intakes, cams, turbos and all that).
My experience with all types of engineers: computer, mechanical, civil or whatever, is that they tend to get caught up in details, that don't
always need such scrutiny to actually work the thing you're trying to build. Sometimes you don't know what the device can do until you
just go out and use it. Then it can be changed as you like. Just an observation!
I am not good in three dimensions, myself, and don't know how these mechanically inclined people do it. I have a lot of admiration for them,
that's for sure.
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metro6r4
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| posted on 27/8/11 at 09:34 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Guinness
quote:
Originally posted by graememk
That is superb!
i want one you'd have to look twice if that came past
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