FASTdan
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 08:26 AM |
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Trader Advice - Customer Pulling a fast one...
Hi Guys, just wondered what peoples thoughts are on this.
Lad contacted me in september about a manifold. Paid his deposit and I completed the manifold in the usual 3-4 weeks and invoiced for the remainder in
paypal as I always do. He did not pay for a month and then eventually had to get his mum to pay last weekend.
I sent the manifold and then a few days later I received a MASSIVE email stating how the manifold did not conform to contract because the spacings
were incorrect bla bla, really arsey I know my rights, quoting goods descriptions acts etc. The errors are larger than I would ever expect and I do
check my products before sending out so I will be very surprised if what he is saying is correct, but anyway....
In response I requested he send it back and if it is incorrect I will refund. HOWEVER, the powers of google have just uncovered that his car is for
sale on pistonheads as an unfinished project!!! So blatantly, the long payment delay, the arsey email etc all point to him basically not wanting the
manifold and doing his best to get his money back somehow.
Where do I stand though? Let me guess, consumer rights will all be on his side.....
[Edited on 9/12/11 by FASTdan]
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BenB
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 08:39 AM |
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He can say it's not fit for purpose but it depends whether the spacing really is off. In any case he would need to return it at which point you
could inspect it. If it clearly was as supposed to be then you can just refuse to refund it, he would have to take you the small claims court at which
point you could produce the part which was clearly as per specifications.
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Theshed
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 08:39 AM |
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You are being a bit pessimistic.... He has a right to have a manifold that (1) in conforms with the contract spec and (2) of satisfactory quality.
For the latter it seems to me that it would have to fit without much messing about. If it does that then the grounds for complaint are slim. You have
done the right thing by asking to have it returned for inspection - however you cannot insist. I would ask him to photograph the alleged faults.
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BenB
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 08:45 AM |
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OFT says
"Made to order
There is no right to cancel goods that are made to the customer’s own specification. Therefore, products may not be returned if they are genuinely
tailor-made products. If they are put together by combining off-the-peg options, then they may be returned."
So under distance selling rules he's up the swanny. So really it's just sales of goods act. Which revolves around "fit for
purpose".
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tegwin
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 08:50 AM |
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Quote the distance selling regulations to him. Point Out that the item was fully quality controlled before shipment and that you doubt it to be
defective. Thank him for his custom and then ignore him.......
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would the last person who leaves the country please switch off the lights and close the door!
www.verticalhorizonsmedia.tv
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mark chandler
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 08:51 AM |
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You have offered to refund if he returns the item and it is not as specified refund.
One off's are generally non returnable so if it meets the specification then send back, I would not worry about it.
When people are under pressure they behave differently, nowt as funny as folk!
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designer
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 09:04 AM |
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A customer has every right to cancel any 'custom made' order, but only if the goods do not conform to the specifications supplied. If a
customer specifies wrong, he has to bite the bullet.
Don't forget, 'quality control' is not a guarantee, nor is it a legal defense.
Distance selling is also a desperate defense.
He has to return it before there is the remotest chance of getting a refund, and if it is withing specs, there is no problem, you just return it to
him and send an invoice for the carriage.
He is obviously struggling money wise, that's why he is doing it!
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FASTdan
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 09:06 AM |
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Thanks guys some very informative stuff there. I will await the return of the item and check the spacings (Im almost certain they will be within 1mm
which is what is stated on all my drawings, however I do not recall if I emailed him a drawing at any stage). But either way as has been said if its
fit for purpose I see no reason to refund.
Thanks for that little nugget Ben, I hadn't picked up on that in the distance selling regs.
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T66
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 09:09 AM |
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At least you have been paid....I thought this tale was heading toward non payment.
Is he not manipulating for a paypal complaint to shaft you? ie get a refund and sell the car anyway.
Bang off some emails to him, re return of the unit, and request a full breakdown from him exactly where its not right.
tie the barstad down before paypal get involved.
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FASTdan
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 09:21 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by T66
At least you have been paid....I thought this tale was heading toward non payment.
Is he not manipulating for a paypal complaint to shaft you? ie get a refund and sell the car anyway.
Bang off some emails to him, re return of the unit, and request a full breakdown from him exactly where its not right.
tie the barstad down before paypal get involved.
He's already sent some sort of refund request via paypal - I havent had a good look at that yet  I should have it back monday as he's
booked a collection today so I will see what it measures and go from there. He's already given me a good breakdown in that first email - with
pics showing ONLY the measuring end of a DRESS MAKERS tape measure lol. So basically the pics dont show the full measurement, only a close up of the
'x mm'. I have requested pictures of a steel rule placed across the gap but nothing yet....
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designer
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 09:22 AM |
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Never forget, distant selling regulations are there for the benefit of the customer, not the retailer, so do not depend on them.
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BenB
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 09:45 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by designer
Never forget, distant selling regulations are there for the benefit of the customer, not the retailer, so do not depend on them.
I think the point is that the person who is trying to get a refund can't rely on them 
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T66
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 09:55 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by designer
Never forget, distant selling regulations are there for the benefit of the customer, not the retailer, so do not depend on them.
Likewise paypal is ramped up toward the buyer, not the seller.
I have a feeling its being used to spam Dan -
I am not certain I would accept a return unless he has fully offered pictures/measurements detailing the faults etc, I would expect to take a hit on
this one.
Make sure you firm up your returns policy, that any return has to be fully evidenced of faulty/poor workmanship prior to returns being accepted.
Or the best option - stop using paypal as a payment means.
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karlak
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 10:21 AM |
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I think you have hit on the problem here Dan,
I guess he sent you via email (hopefully) the dimensions he required. If he has measured the dimensions using a "dressmakers tape", then
that is where it has all gone wrong. What a Dimwit !!!
Good luck, is he paying the return of the item ? Also, when you get it back, is there anyway you can get an "independant" report of the
spacing and sizing etc - perhaps a local engineering firm you know. Just trying to head off his next move really.
MK Indy - 2litre Duratec - Omex 600 - Jenvey throttle bodies - ETB DigiDash2
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coyoteboy
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 11:50 AM |
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This is why a lot of companies I have spoken to won't make anything to fit anything without seeing the other half themselves - you just
can't trust a numpty to measure correctly using a decent tool. A normal tape measure may suffice if you have the part in front of you and are
making something fairly simple measured with the same tape, but without it clearly needs to be a calibrated item and use good engineering measuring
and drawing knowledge. Sounds like he's pulling a fast one - I bet he'll give up with minor resistance when you prove the point, but
I'd be wary of trusting anyone's drawings/measurements in future without either seeing the part or accepting proper engineering drawings
and them accepting it's going to be based on their measurements exactly.
+_ 1mm seems like quite a large tolerance though, assuming you're talking about mating faces.
[Edited on 9/12/11 by coyoteboy]
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nick205
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 12:47 PM |
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In the for sale add is there any pictures of the manifold fitted or un-fitted? Has he described the manifold in any way or indicated it's
included in the sale?
It may be useful info if things get out of hand.
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big-vee-twin
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 06:17 PM |
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Dan if you need a second opinion from a mechanical Chartered Engineer let me know
Kev
Duratec Engine is fitted, MS2 Extra V3 is assembled and tested, engine running, car now built. IVA passed 26/02/2016
http://www.triangleltd.com
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JoelP
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 09:28 PM |
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there is no guarantee he wont just bend it before sending it back
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l0rd
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| posted on 9/12/11 at 10:38 PM |
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so which one is it?
linky
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FASTdan
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| posted on 11/12/11 at 11:20 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by l0rd
so which one is it?
linky
LOL good effort on the detective work but its not actually any of those.
Thanks for all the advice guys.
NEW danST WEBSITE NOW LIVE! Bike carbs, throttle bodies and more......
http://www.danstengineering.co.uk/
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FASTdan
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| posted on 16/12/11 at 02:02 PM |
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Update
So the manifold arrived back. Manifold was specified to be 78 - 78 - 78.
Alleged dimensions he gave:
75 - 76 - 77
Actual dimensions, measured with verniers (rounded as dont have the figures to hand, but within 1/100'ths of a mm):
77 - 78 - 78
So I lost a mm on one spacing due to distortion, but that in no way makes it unfit for purpose - for those not familiar the connection to these
manifolds is via flexible silicone or rubber hosing.
The photo he sent of the bodies lined up however showed a HUGE difference, we're talking 10mm accumulated error. God knows where this came from
- I can only assume he measured his bodies wrong (everything I've read about the bodies in question suggests 80-80-80). But the key point being
the manifold was to his spec.
Anyway, the upshot is I did a nice little report detailing measurements including photo's of the digital verniers in position and politely told
him he wouldnt be getting a refund. This all but put an end to his lies and he accepted that he was getting the manifold back and no refund. Either
that or I expect him to pull some even more ridiculous stunt very shortly.
I just cant believe someone can try and blatantly lie their way to a refund. As if I wouldnt measure it??
I've notched up 100 manifolds to date (as of this month) and this is the first serious dispute. I will indeed heed advice and firm up my return
policy wording for the future.
NEW danST WEBSITE NOW LIVE! Bike carbs, throttle bodies and more......
http://www.danstengineering.co.uk/
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