gaz_gaz
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| posted on 28/4/11 at 12:22 PM |
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BEST SUITED CAR FOR ROTARY ENGINE
Ok,
so if i cant find a BEC car i'm thinkin about buying a kit and putting my RX7 engine and RX8 gearbox in with a small turbo.
i know a fella has done an RX8 engine into a Tiger Avon without too much fuss but he wasnt sure if there would be any issues with a narrower car so
any opinions welcome,
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scootz
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| posted on 28/4/11 at 12:43 PM |
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I can tell you from first-hand experience that a Mazda 6-speed box won't go into the trans-tunnel of an S3 chassis Caterham.
It's Evolution Baby!
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Mr Whippy
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| posted on 28/4/11 at 12:49 PM |
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linky
linky 2
linky 3
linky 4
linky 5
linky 6
[Edited on 28/4/11 by Mr Whippy]
Fame is when your old car is plastered all over the internet
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Ivan
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| posted on 28/4/11 at 02:20 PM |
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The turbo rotary needs a bit more room width wise than a standard book Locost has but it can be done and has been many times - the best solution is to
go +4. However if you are uncertain - buy or measure the motor and with your handy tape measure visit the various kit manufacturers.
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Bare
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| posted on 28/4/11 at 03:51 PM |
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Dunno been thru this decision a couple of times. It seems a very attractive idea, at the outset.
There ARE drawbacks though:-)
Firstly the RX motor is every bit as heavy as a piston engine ... once you've added.. mod cons... like a starter, alternator and intake system,
exhaust system :-).
Also exhaust system is big 'n heavy due to the nature of running a large 2 stroke ((spare the babble.. it may not 'techincaly' be
a 2 stroke.. but if it looks runs like a duck and burns oil it sure seems a 2 stroke to me :-)
Also a Turbo on these is by necessity Massive ..think dinner plate. Remember the 2 stroke bit?? rotaries have monstrous appetite for air /fuel, it
takes a Huge turbo to supply it.
And these run low boost ...6 psi is pretty well it for a drag car even, unless you have the bespoke Mazda Works Lemans engine that ran to 8psi.
A "competent" performance rebuild is between $5000 and $7000 locally. (don't ask :-)
Given that these engines have a ...much... shorter operating life than a Piston engine, it's more than likely any donor unit WILL need a
rebuild.
Not trying to dissuade.. just raising awareness of the issues few bother to mention .
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expatkiwi
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| posted on 28/4/11 at 06:11 PM |
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Cough Cough
U2U me your number and I will call you
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2766099.htm
Cheers
Brian
I have decided to call my Westfeild "The Caterhammer" Hopefully it will
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gaz_gaz
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| posted on 28/4/11 at 07:22 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Bare
Dunno been thru this decision a couple of times. It seems a very attractive idea, at the outset.
There ARE drawbacks though:-)
Firstly the RX motor is every bit as heavy as a piston engine ... once you've added.. mod cons... like a starter, alternator and intake system,
exhaust system :-).
Also exhaust system is big 'n heavy due to the nature of running a large 2 stroke ((spare the babble.. it may not 'techincaly' be
a 2 stroke.. but if it looks runs like a duck and burns oil it sure seems a 2 stroke to me :-)
Also a Turbo on these is by necessity Massive ..think dinner plate. Remember the 2 stroke bit?? rotaries have monstrous appetite for air /fuel, it
takes a Huge turbo to supply it.
And these run low boost ...6 psi is pretty well it for a drag car even, unless you have the bespoke Mazda Works Lemans engine that ran to 8psi.
A "competent" performance rebuild is between $5000 and $7000 locally. (don't ask :-)
Given that these engines have a ...much... shorter operating life than a Piston engine, it's more than likely any donor unit WILL need a
rebuild.
Not trying to dissuade.. just raising awareness of the issues few bother to mention .
hiya, thanks for the heads up but i'm struggling to agree with any of that i'm afraid.
i've owned 8 Mazda RX7's in varying forms from totally stock to 5mpg single turbo animals
when being hammered
First off the rx7 engine fully dressed with twin turbo packs, alternator, aircon pump, power steering pump, manifolds, etc etc, came in at 175kgs
from memory and the gearbox was 35 - 40, again from memory but i could comfortably lift it above my head, (gearbox that is  )
With the aircon, power steering, heavy twin turbos etc away i think it was around 120ish but again this is from memory and alots happened since we
weighed them, i know it was a good bit lighter than a rev 3 toyota 3sgte block and head weighed at the same time.,
The twin turbos on a stock rev 3 rx7 run 9psi boost if i recall correctly and i know for sure i used to run my small single turbo (hks t04e) turbo at
0.7bar (10psi),
I have a fully rebuilt engine in my garage at the moment thats been rebuilt using SCR apex seals, Atkins solid corners, replacement good used housing,
Every other part was Mazda OEM such as side seals, water seals, oil control rings etc, , the engine was ported and built by someone very highly
regarded here and came in at a little over £2000.
And then theres the reliability issue that everyone harps on about, i myself have blown 3 or 4 of these motors but every time theres been a reason,
Buying a car with an unknown engine, poor mapping, overheating due to a cracked radiator causing waterseal failure, ancillary failure,"read
ignition issues", to name a couple, the engines are very susceptible to change, aslong as there set up correctly and maintained properly they
are lovely engines, i have an RX7 thats covered around 55k miles since rebuild, most of which have been very hard miles and she's never skipped
a beat, (touching lots of wood here)
Oh i agree with the 2 stroke bit and i actually have removed the OMP pump and run mine on premix oil in the fuel, which is another way of prelonging
the engine imo,.
Then theres the really good things about the engine like how compact it is so can be mounted low down and pushed back, and the nice high rev limit
from a properly balanced motor,
I Know theres a couple of fellas on here who know far more than me about rotaries so if they have anything to add it'd be much appreciated.
[Edited on 28/4/11 by gaz_gaz]
[Edited on 28/4/11 by gaz_gaz]
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gaz_gaz
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| posted on 28/4/11 at 07:26 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by expatkiwi
Cough Cough
U2U me your number and I will call you
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2766099.htm
Cheers
Brian
Brian,
just seen your email from my MRC message this afternoon
i'll drop you an email now but i'm heading out so if you send me your number i'll call you in the morning,
i'm only along the A27 in Sussex so can pop down for a gander anytime.
thanks Gary
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expatkiwi
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| posted on 28/4/11 at 09:10 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gaz_gaz
quote:
Originally posted by Bare
Dunno been thru this decision a couple of times. It seems a very attractive idea, at the outset.
There ARE drawbacks though:-)
Firstly the RX motor is every bit as heavy as a piston engine ... once you've added.. mod cons... like a starter, alternator and intake system,
exhaust system :-).
Also exhaust system is big 'n heavy due to the nature of running a large 2 stroke ((spare the babble.. it may not 'techincaly' be
a 2 stroke.. but if it looks runs like a duck and burns oil it sure seems a 2 stroke to me :-)
Also a Turbo on these is by necessity Massive ..think dinner plate. Remember the 2 stroke bit?? rotaries have monstrous appetite for air /fuel, it
takes a Huge turbo to supply it.
And these run low boost ...6 psi is pretty well it for a drag car even, unless you have the bespoke Mazda Works Lemans engine that ran to 8psi.
A "competent" performance rebuild is between $5000 and $7000 locally. (don't ask :-)
Given that these engines have a ...much... shorter operating life than a Piston engine, it's more than likely any donor unit WILL need a
rebuild.
Not trying to dissuade.. just raising awareness of the issues few bother to mention .
hiya, thanks for the heads up but i'm struggling to agree with any of that i'm afraid.
i've owned 8 Mazda RX7's in varying forms from totally stock to 5mpg single turbo animals
when being hammered
First off the rx7 engine fully dressed with twin turbo packs, alternator, aircon pump, power steering pump, manifolds, etc etc, came in at 175kgs
from memory and the gearbox was 35 - 40, again from memory but i could comfortably lift it above my head, (gearbox that is )
With the aircon, power steering, heavy twin turbos etc away i think it was around 120ish but again this is from memory and alots happened since we
weighed them, i know it was a good bit lighter than a rev 3 toyota 3sgte block and head weighed at the same time.,
The twin turbos on a stock rev 3 rx7 run 9psi boost if i recall correctly and i know for sure i used to run my small single turbo (hks t04e) turbo at
0.7bar (10psi),
I have a fully rebuilt engine in my garage at the moment thats been rebuilt using SCR apex seals, Atkins solid corners, replacement good used housing,
Every other part was Mazda OEM such as side seals, water seals, oil control rings etc, , the engine was ported and built by someone very highly
regarded here and came in at a little over £2000.
And then theres the reliability issue that everyone harps on about, i myself have blown 3 or 4 of these motors but every time theres been a reason,
Buying a car with an unknown engine, poor mapping, overheating due to a cracked radiator causing waterseal failure, ancillary failure,"read
ignition issues", to name a couple, the engines are very susceptible to change, aslong as there set up correctly and maintained properly they
are lovely engines, i have an RX7 thats covered around 55k miles since rebuild, most of which have been very hard miles and she's never skipped
a beat, (touching lots of wood here)
Oh i agree with the 2 stroke bit and i actually have removed the OMP pump and run mine on premix oil in the fuel, which is another way of prelonging
the engine imo,.
Then theres the really good things about the engine like how compact it is so can be mounted low down and pushed back, and the nice high rev limit
from a properly balanced motor,
I Know theres a couple of fellas on here who know far more than me about rotaries so if they have anything to add it'd be much appreciated.
[Edited on 28/4/11 by gaz_gaz]
[Edited on 28/4/11 by gaz_gaz]
Agreed
I have decided to call my Westfeild "The Caterhammer" Hopefully it will
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mangogrooveworkshop
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| posted on 28/4/11 at 09:29 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by scootz
I can tell you from first-hand experience that a Mazda 6-speed box won't go into the trans-tunnel of an S3 chassis Caterham.
you were not using a big enough hammer I know of several rotary sevens and i had one way back when i was 25 years old.
drank fuel like there was no tomorrow but went like stink.....
13 b rotarys ate seals for breakfast and it got punted in to a beech buggy......
went back to a four pot kent bought brand new
car ended up being sold to feed the family.....
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mangogrooveworkshop
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| posted on 28/4/11 at 09:31 PM |
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http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/2766099.htm
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 28/4/11 at 10:28 PM |
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with lightweight , id ditch the turbo , peripharal port 13b , maybe even a 12a .
failing that , a cosmo with its best suited engine .
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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Bare
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 02:28 AM |
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quote:
Originally posted by gaz_gaz
quote:
Originally posted by Bare
Dunno been thru this decision a couple of times. It seems a very attractive idea, at the outset.
There ARE drawbacks though:-)
Firstly the RX motor is every bit as heavy as a piston engine ... once you've added.. mod cons... like a starter, alternator and intake system,
exhaust system :-).
Also exhaust system is big 'n heavy due to the nature of running a large 2 stroke ((spare the babble.. it may not 'techincaly' be
a 2 stroke.. but if it looks runs like a duck and burns oil it sure seems a 2 stroke to me :-)
Also a Turbo on these is by necessity Massive ..think dinner plate. Remember the 2 stroke bit?? rotaries have monstrous appetite for air /fuel, it
takes a Huge turbo to supply it.
And these run low boost ...6 psi is pretty well it for a drag car even, unless you have the bespoke Mazda Works Lemans engine that ran to 8psi.
A "competent" performance rebuild is between $5000 and $7000 locally. (don't ask :-)
Given that these engines have a ...much... shorter operating life than a Piston engine, it's more than likely any donor unit WILL need a
rebuild.
Not trying to dissuade.. just raising awareness of the issues few bother to mention .
hiya, thanks for the heads up but i'm struggling to agree with any of that i'm afraid.
i've owned 8 Mazda RX7's in varying forms from totally stock to 5mpg single turbo animals
when being hammered
First off the rx7 engine fully dressed with twin turbo packs, alternator, aircon pump, power steering pump, manifolds, etc etc, came in at 175kgs
from memory and the gearbox was 35 - 40, again from memory but i could comfortably lift it above my head, (gearbox that is )
With the aircon, power steering, heavy twin turbos etc away i think it was around 120ish but again this is from memory and alots happened since we
weighed them, i know it was a good bit lighter than a rev 3 toyota 3sgte block and head weighed at the same time.,
The twin turbos on a stock rev 3 rx7 run 9psi boost if i recall correctly and i know for sure i used to run my small single turbo (hks t04e) turbo at
0.7bar (10psi),
I have a fully rebuilt engine in my garage at the moment thats been rebuilt using SCR apex seals, Atkins solid corners, replacement good used housing,
Every other part was Mazda OEM such as side seals, water seals, oil control rings etc, , the engine was ported and built by someone very highly
regarded here and came in at a little over £2000.
And then theres the reliability issue that everyone harps on about, i myself have blown 3 or 4 of these motors but every time theres been a reason,
Buying a car with an unknown engine, poor mapping, overheating due to a cracked radiator causing waterseal failure, ancillary failure,"read
ignition issues", to name a couple, the engines are very susceptible to change, aslong as there set up correctly and maintained properly they
are lovely engines, i have an RX7 thats covered around 55k miles since rebuild, most of which have been very hard miles and she's never skipped
a beat, (touching lots of wood here)
Oh i agree with the 2 stroke bit and i actually have removed the OMP pump and run mine on premix oil in the fuel, which is another way of prelonging
the engine imo,.
Well... All I can say is Bollocks!!
The Factory Lemans Cars used 8 psi... PERIOD... and local Drag cars use 6 psi.. any more and they explode..No joke that.. it's been tried
repeatedly by Professionals
IF ..you can actually lift a Rotary (complete) above' your head ..then... you should seek career employment as a car Hoist.
C'mon Kid . I've been playing with these for over 20 years .. I'm well past entertaining amateur delusions/bullshit.
These ARE great units... IN.. their appropriate context. But they are also Crap when misplaced.
TextTextText
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madteg
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 05:52 AM |
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RX7 ENGINE
I brought a engine out of a T11 tried to fit it only to find the turbo ended up where my peddle box is so i changed my mind. On the other hand if was
left hand drive it would have gone in.
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 11:26 AM |
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wasnt the 787 a rotor normally aspirated ???
my mate uses 26psi in his 13b twin turbo - it was the first uk car into the 9s.
im sure if you used 8 psi max , youd be at the back of the pack .
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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gaz_gaz
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 12:27 PM |
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Well... All I can say is Bollocks!!
The Factory Lemans Cars used 8 psi... PERIOD... and local Drag cars use 6 psi.. any more and they explode..No joke that.. it's been tried
repeatedly by Professionals
IF ..you can actually lift a Rotary (complete) above' your head ..then... you should seek career employment as a car Hoist.
C'mon Kid . I've been playing with these for over 20 years .. I'm well past entertaining amateur delusions/bullshit.
These ARE great units... IN.. their appropriate context. But they are also Crap when misplaced.
you clearly are correct and i'm wrong,
although its also clear i said i can lift the gearbox above my head,
i aslo quoted figures for weight while your just spouting words, "kid"
and 8psi of boost or they explode, best tell that to the fella that was running 9's at Santa Pod last weekend running 15psi boost but planning
to turn it up to 28 before the next event,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xqqOm6hEM8
or
robs that suns a big borg warner at 1.8bar boost iirc and made over 700 flywheel horsepower.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOH9EBLRmW0
or how about the fella on this forum with the stylus kitcar and rotary engine that runs 17psi of boost.,
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daniel mason
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 01:39 PM |
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i think you need to run at a boost which will give your engine longevity. it would be a seriously quick car anyway if you can fit it in. but
likewise.it would be a nightmare to blow an engine after a few minutes of abuse!
[Edited on 29/4/11 by daniel mason]
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gaz_gaz
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 05:12 PM |
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my own car, 13b rx7 has been running 1.2bar of boost or 17 - 18psi boost for the last 2 years without hichup.
most uk tuners are more than happy to turn the boost upto around the 1.2bar max then they start asking for water injection to be fitted if you wish to
go further,
the engine isnt really my concern as rebuilding them is almost theraputic (sp)
i'm more interested in finding out which car will house the engine and gearbox with a small turbo.,
Although the P-Port idea isnt too bad although the noise maybe an issue,
My boss, the owner of Quantum Suspension owns a Tiga 286gpc with a P-Ported 13b controlled by a motec that we're playing around with at the
moment working on a new engine port idea,
couple of pics from the silverstone classic
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davehamster/3772776296/in/photostream/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/davehamster/3771966727/in/photostream/
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 06:45 PM |
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this is my mate geff at reworx's car
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FELN_F8DETY
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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expatkiwi
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 08:52 PM |
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And your mate geoff was the first owner and origional builder of my car
I have decided to call my Westfeild "The Caterhammer" Hopefully it will
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 09:04 PM |
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the purple westfield he put through a hedge backwards ?.....
small world.
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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expatkiwi
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 09:09 PM |
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He sold it to Bill Shurvington where it fell into a bit of a sorry state.
I got it from Bill with free chicken poo all over it
and then stripped it bare, tightend what was loose and vice versa. Put my engine in from my race car and then proceeded to throw money at it on brakes
suspension etc.
End result
[Edited on 29/4/11 by expatkiwi]
I have decided to call my Westfeild "The Caterhammer" Hopefully it will
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Volvorsport
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 09:14 PM |
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haha , bill is still building me a megasquirt .
geff asked me to repair that rear wing too - im sure i did some things while it was at uni .
www.dbsmotorsport.co.uk
getting dirty under a bus
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Antnicuk
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 09:17 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Bare
quote:
Originally posted by gaz_gaz
quote:
Originally posted by Bare
Well... All I can say is Bollocks!!
The Factory Lemans Cars used 8 psi... PERIOD... and local Drag cars use 6 psi.. any more and they explode..No joke that.. it's been tried
repeatedly by Professionals
IF ..you can actually lift a Rotary (complete) above' your head ..then... you should seek career employment as a car Hoist.
C'mon Kid . I've been playing with these for over 20 years .. I'm well past entertaining amateur delusions/bullshit.
These ARE great units... IN.. their appropriate context. But they are also Crap when misplaced.
TextTextText
Sorry mate but you are wrong, i have been playing with rotaries for 20 years and we have 2 rotary powered kit cars, a 20b 3 rotor RX7 with over 600
bhp, a Vauxhall VX220 with a 13b, a first gen with a 20b N/A, a first gen with a 13b turbo and a first gen elford turbo.
I have lost count of how many rotaries i have owned, all the turbo ones have run a minimum of 1 bar of boost except the stylus which i run at 0.8 bar
with 400 bhp, any more and traction is non existent.
My last road car ran 1.2 bar and nearly 500 bhp for over 2 years of drag, drift and track racing, it still didnt die.
I also thought that the 787 was N/A
Also, the stock Mazda FD3 runs 10 psi from mazda
[Edited on 29-4-11 by Antnicuk]
600 BHP per ton, Stylus Brought back from the dead! Turbo Rotary Powered!
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expatkiwi
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| posted on 29/4/11 at 09:20 PM |
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787 was N/A on slide fuel injection
The rear wing on my car came from another westy but I must say that when widening the rear arches I did think the bodywork was a little thick in
places.
[Edited on 29/4/11 by expatkiwi]
I have decided to call my Westfeild "The Caterhammer" Hopefully it will
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