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Difference between Track Day Tyres and Road Tyres
ChrisJ15 - 13/4/24 at 08:11 AM

Hi, I have a J15 which has Yokohama Advan A048s all round which are getting a bit old and perished so need replacing.

I cant replace like for like as these tyres aren't E rated anymore.

Because they are 195/60R14 rear and 185/55R14 fronts I'm finding it really difficult to find an equivalent track day tyre. The only one I can find in that size are Dunlop Direzza which are quite expensive (£160ish each).

I dont plan to do a huge amount of track days so my question is, whats the difference between a reasonable road tyre and a track day tyre on a circuit? I know its a very open question but is there a massive difference between the two when just going for some spirited track day fun?

Probably worth adding the car is only 500Kg and is 200bhp.

[Edited on 13/4/24 by ChrisJ15]

JoelP - 13/4/24 at 06:59 PM

I've been looking in to tyres recently. To be honest, £160 doesn't seem too bad, considering these cars don't seen to ever wear their tyres out. I'd be tempted to just get the best grip, even if you don't really need it on the road. Obviously weigh that up against the reality that you might actually need some wet performance in normal use, rather than a few pretend treads to satisfy the law!

bi22le - 13/4/24 at 11:30 PM

No sure what their cost is but I would look at R888R. I am pretty sure they are road legal with E stamps.

They are a very capable track day tyre, fine on the road. Crap in the wet, but you wont get a decent dry track tyre which is also good in the road grease rain.

The only comprimise is they "only" do 185 60 R14 , not a 195. Buy the 185 and I bet you wont notice the 10mm tread width.

ChrisJ15 - 14/4/24 at 08:06 AM

Frustratingly the R888s aren't available in a 55 profile for 14" rims. Car looks a bit odd with the taller profile on the front.

I cant find an road tyres at these sizes so looks like its the Direzzas!

obfripper - 14/4/24 at 03:00 PM

There is the mrf zrt and the yokohama a052 available in your front size, the mrf zrt seems to have good reviews and is used as a control tyre for the mx5 race series, and the a052 is the road legal replacement for the a048r, these might be worth a try if the prices are right.

Dave

[Edited on 14/4/24 by obfripper]

loggyboy - 15/4/24 at 01:24 PM

Did a back to back test at Blyton on 3 sets of tyres. Mich PS2 road tyres, Yoko AD08R fast road then Yoko A048 race tyres (comp only), and dry performance confirmed as night, dusk and day. A small step between PS2 and AD08R, but noticeable, and massive more grip in the A048, which whilst being the competition versions, they were on a par with the road legal race tyres ive used before (A042 and Avon ZZR)
What is also night and day is wet performance, whilst damp is a performance level for any treaded tyre (as is more about heat than tread), full wet with standing water, IMO and IME you dont want to be out on road or track in anything thats not either a normal treaded road tyre or a intended track wet/intermediate.
So if its less about comparing track to road tyres as comparing how likely you are to be out on the road in the rain.

ChrisJ15 - 16/4/24 at 06:55 AM

quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Did a back to back test at Blyton on 3 sets of tyres. Mich PS2 road tyres, Yoko AD08R fast road then Yoko A048 race tyres (comp only), and dry performance confirmed as night, dusk and day. A small step between PS2 and AD08R, but noticeable, and massive more grip in the A048, which whilst being the competition versions, they were on a par with the road legal race tyres ive used before (A042 and Avon ZZR)
What is also night and day is wet performance, whilst damp is a performance level for any treaded tyre (as is more about heat than tread), full wet with standing water, IMO and IME you dont want to be out on road or track in anything thats not either a normal treaded road tyre or a intended track wet/intermediate.
So if its less about comparing track to road tyres as comparing how likely you are to be out on the road in the rain.


Thats a really good point. I only have an aero screen so no desire to be out in the rain but have noticed significantly less grip even on damp roads.

cliftyhanger - 16/4/24 at 07:56 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJ15
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Did a back to back test at Blyton on 3 sets of tyres. Mich PS2 road tyres, Yoko AD08R fast road then Yoko A048 race tyres (comp only), and dry performance confirmed as night, dusk and day. A small step between PS2 and AD08R, but noticeable, and massive more grip in the A048, which whilst being the competition versions, they were on a par with the road legal race tyres ive used before (A042 and Avon ZZR)
What is also night and day is wet performance, whilst damp is a performance level for any treaded tyre (as is more about heat than tread), full wet with standing water, IMO and IME you dont want to be out on road or track in anything thats not either a normal treaded road tyre or a intended track wet/intermediate.
So if its less about comparing track to road tyres as comparing how likely you are to be out on the road in the rain.


Thats a really good point. I only have an aero screen so no desire to be out in the rain but have noticed significantly less grip even on damp roads.


I am more of an enthuastic trackayer rather than particularly skilled, and use a comparatively inapporopriate car (spitfire but st170 poweed)
I thought about some bespoke TD tyres, but as I drive the car to and from the track, and that can be 200 miles, I have no way of transporting a spare set of wheels. And given some of the rain I have experienced on some events, I am glad I opted to stick with road tyres. Add to that the vast majority of t=driving I do is touring. This year got a castle combe td in early May, off the Spa for teh classic, including a single 20mins on track. Then off to Ireland with friends, and in Sept a 3K tour of europe down to the alps and dolomites where the interesting roads are.

There is another perspective too. Are you going for the very fastest times? there was an interesting article a few years ago comparing TD v road tyres. The conclusion was that the road tyres were about 1-2% slower lap times, but more fun. I can't remember what car was used for the test, that may have had a bearing on the results. But worth a thought.

At present I am on Uniroyals which seem comparable to the Michelins I had previously.

ChrisJ15 - 16/4/24 at 09:06 AM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger
quote:
Originally posted by ChrisJ15
quote:
Originally posted by loggyboy
Did a back to back test at Blyton on 3 sets of tyres. Mich PS2 road tyres, Yoko AD08R fast road then Yoko A048 race tyres (comp only), and dry performance confirmed as night, dusk and day. A small step between PS2 and AD08R, but noticeable, and massive more grip in the A048, which whilst being the competition versions, they were on a par with the road legal race tyres ive used before (A042 and Avon ZZR)
What is also night and day is wet performance, whilst damp is a performance level for any treaded tyre (as is more about heat than tread), full wet with standing water, IMO and IME you dont want to be out on road or track in anything thats not either a normal treaded road tyre or a intended track wet/intermediate.
So if its less about comparing track to road tyres as comparing how likely you are to be out on the road in the rain.


Thats a really good point. I only have an aero screen so no desire to be out in the rain but have noticed significantly less grip even on damp roads.


I am more of an enthuastic trackayer rather than particularly skilled, and use a comparatively inapporopriate car (spitfire but st170 poweed)
I thought about some bespoke TD tyres, but as I drive the car to and from the track, and that can be 200 miles, I have no way of transporting a spare set of wheels. And given some of the rain I have experienced on some events, I am glad I opted to stick with road tyres. Add to that the vast majority of t=driving I do is touring. This year got a castle combe td in early May, off the Spa for teh classic, including a single 20mins on track. Then off to Ireland with friends, and in Sept a 3K tour of europe down to the alps and dolomites where the interesting roads are.

There is another perspective too. Are you going for the very fastest times? there was an interesting article a few years ago comparing TD v road tyres. The conclusion was that the road tyres were about 1-2% slower lap times, but more fun. I can't remember what car was used for the test, that may have had a bearing on the results. But worth a thought.

At present I am on Uniroyals which seem comparable to the Michelins I had previously.


Again a very good point. If I booked a track day and it rained a lot I probably would have to bin it on track day tyres.

I'm not looking for fastest lap times, just biggest smiles and you can argue that a little sideways action, allbeit slower, is more fun!

The car is so light with a very good power to weight ratio (400bhp/ton) that the laws of physics dictate that it will go around corners very quickly indeed anyhow, regardless of grip.

All good food for thought, many thanks for all the comments.

ChrisJ15 - 21/4/24 at 09:51 AM

I thought I'd go for Toyo Proxes CF2s as they are available for my preferred sizes but no-one has any stock! Seems there's a world rubber shortage - who knew!

I quite like Nankang NS-R2s (and read good things about them) but I can only get 185/60 R14 and 165/55 R14 so I'd drop 10mm on the rear and 20mm on the font. TBH when I look at the front the dust on the tyres suggests that the outer 30mm of tyre doesnt touch the road anyway and thats running tyres pressures all the way down to 12psi.

Just wondering if I'd notice the drop in the width with these? Only time I've felt it slipping round on the road in the dry is being a bit too generous on the power in 2nd (OK a lot then! ) coming out of roundabouts. Have never experienced oversteer or understeer with a neutral throttle while cornering.

JoelP - 21/4/24 at 02:23 PM

You're facing the exact same problem as me Chris! Swapping to nsr2s would loose me roughly 12mm, and I've only got 50mm under my sump as it is! Hence why I'm tempted to move to 15s.

JoelP - 24/4/24 at 05:45 PM

I ended up getting the nsr2s, in 185 60 14. I'll get some ar1s in 14 later in the year, and put them on different wheels. Then I can just swap as required.

ChrisJ15 - 27/4/24 at 08:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
You're facing the exact same problem as me Chris! Swapping to nsr2s would loose me roughly 12mm, and I've only got 50mm under my sump as it is! Hence why I'm tempted to move to 15s.


Are you talking about a drop in height (as you refer to only having 50mm under your sump)?

I'm talking about a drop in width. 10mm at the rear seems OK but it's the 20mm drop at the front that concerns me. It's a pity as I like the NS-R2s because of cost and hearing they are a bit better in the wet (eg. quite an open tread pattern for a track tyre).

One other question I'd value input on is for the NS-R2s and the Dunlop Direzza DZ03Gs there doesnt seem to be much choice of compound. Logically for a very light car you would go for the softest but for the NS-R2s they only seem to be available in 180 (described as 'street' and the DZ03Gs only R3 medium for the rear (195/60 R14) and H1 hard for the front (strangely).
Does anyone have any input as to the difference in these compounds for street/track use? Obviously if it's a question of getting heat into the tyres it's going to be difficult to achieve this on the road (officer! )

JoelP - 27/4/24 at 09:23 PM

Yeah, the height is what bothers me. I'm not hugely bothered about the width.

johnH20 - 29/4/24 at 06:02 PM

IMHO the key thing is how you drive and your expectations of lap time/speed. My Cyclone has ( original ) Toyo 888s which are suprisingly ok in the damp but are a semi slick ( now no longer available I believe ) . I also used these on my Lotus Elise ( 300 kg heavier ) on both road and track. I now have another Elise on 'production' Yokohama tyres and to be honest they are no less fun on track and better all round road tyres. My take is that you do not need ultimate grip to have fun on track !

ChrisJ15 - 15/3/25 at 07:09 AM

I cant beleive its nearly a year on and I still haven't sorted tyres for my J15!

I thought I was sorted with A052s but the supplier was listing them but didnt actually have stock (very frustrating!).

Just to re-iterate I need 195/60R14 rear and 185/55R14 fronts.

I'll have to go for road tyres and have few options for the required size.

Nankang NA1 Econex got rejected early on, correct me if Im wrong but say some worrying stats about these in comparisons. Its a pity because these are the only tyres with an exact size match.

I'm left with the following by dropping the rear width from 195 to 185:

Goodyear Efficienetgrip Performance
Dunlop Sport Blueresponse
Michelin Pilot Exalto Pe2

Does anyone have experience of these?

I thought these were options but struggling to find both sizes now!:
Michelin Energy Saver
Uniroyal Rainsport

[Edited on 15/3/25 by ChrisJ15]

padrc66 - 18/3/25 at 09:13 AM

i went around the same issues as you trying to find suitable sizes, ideally the same type front and rear, and something not too budget!

one option would be to drop to 165/60R14 front (same RR) and use uniroyal rain expert or Avon ZT7 (was caterham standard fit for a while).

i decided in the end to drop to 13" front wheels and fit Yokohama Advan HF type D from their classic range (185/60R13 front and 205/60R14 rear). i was already running 205 on the rear for gearing reasons.

just had a quick look and they all seem to be out of stock now - i was able to get them though asda tyres this time last year for a reasonable price.


loggyboy - 18/3/25 at 11:24 AM

Have you considered moving to 15s as suggested before? 195 50 15s are very common, 195 45 15s are nearly as common, and both have simiar radius to the 14s you currently run.
14s are a dying tyre size.

[Edited on 18-3-25 by loggyboy]

ChrisJ15 - 22/3/25 at 08:30 AM

Thanks for the suggestions.

I looked at changing to narrower front wheels so I could get Nankang NSR-2s but the company the minlights came from (KN Tyres I think) has gone bust.

I did think about 15"s but I like the extra tyre height as it helps soften the ride and looks 'period'.

There is stock online Dunlop Sport Blueresponse (with 185 rears) and I've seen good reviews for these so will probably plump for them.

Only dilemma is do I take the car to the tyre fitters and trust them not to rough up the underside or take the wheels off and take them there!

ChrisJ15 - 9/6/25 at 05:42 AM

As an update I did go for the Dunlop Blueresponse in the end and long story short, yes they are different to the track day tyres. I notice it particularly when accelerating hard when not going in a straight line, say coming off a roundabout in 2nd gear. They will break away more readily but it involves skill to control that so is quite good fun tbh.

It's nice to not be paranoid if you do get some wet roads.

Still haven't got it on track yet but I totally get the comments about fun v lap times. I do think it will involve more fun at lower speeds.

In terms of mobile fitters, I ordered tyres though Asda tyres and paid £30 more for mobile fitting. Took wheels off myself and fitter was really pleased as he'd looked at the car type in advance and wasnt sure about jacking it, plus it saved him some time. All in all a good experience.