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Petition against the banning of petrol and diesel
Simon - 2/4/23 at 08:43 PM

vehicles

https://chng.it/cG5gchWt

Even Lord Bamford agrees!

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/cars/news/jcb-chief-demands-rethink-of-net-zero-ban-on-cars/ar-AA19nsGm?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=f6575dd868d74ea8b9af0f702488d 26e&ei=11

be grateful for some sigs

Cheers

Benzine - 2/4/23 at 09:30 PM

Bamford, a massive supporter of Brexshit because JCB kept getting fined by the EU because of dodgy practices (price fixing iirc). Tim Martin with a digger.

That petition is advocating using hydrogen as a fuel to be burnt in an IC engine? Literally the worst solution possible. Terribly, terribly inefficient.

Yours,
Grumpy of Gitshire

Simon - 2/4/23 at 09:50 PM

This is very interesting (imagine if this was done on a large scale!) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ytg23mDd1a4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19Q7nAYjAJY&t

https://media.toyota.co.uk/toyota-highlights-its-multi-technology-approach-to-zero-carbon-with-hydrogen-combustion-prototype-car/

But if you don't want the government to at least consider alternatives to (horrendously expensive) ev's.....

[Edited on 2/4/23 by Simon]

Mr Whippy - 3/4/23 at 07:05 AM

Can't say I'd ever sign it tbh.

I really can't wait to see the back of diesels, just so sick of their smoke, having to change lanes or overtake to avoid me or the kids breathing their filth. Don't care about where the fuel comes from, it's the pollution that matters to me.

Petrol's, fine but costs heaps and isn't very clean.

Hydrogen, got nothing at all against it, looks really great but I can't mind the last time I saw anything other than a few busses using it.

EV's are great, sorry they just are. Still a bit limited in their range but day to day stuff just perfect. Too expensive? not really I didn't spend much as far as cars go and a large part of that cost is offset by the cheaper fuel, almost all of the cost in fact.

Their only banning new combustion cars, I've never owned a new car in my life. Most cars will last at least 20 years with decent maintenance so that's 20 years to get use to EV's. Too much nonsense about dwindling lithium or other misinformation pedaled by oil companies (same situation as tobacco) etc., already they are manufacturing alternatives and some of the new batteries coming don't even use any rare minerals.

I recently tool out the pollen filter out the Fiesta, and OMG it was just black with soot, who really want's to breath that crap in? (unless your a smoker then you might not care...)

Benzine - 3/4/23 at 07:16 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy

I really can't wait to see the back of diesels, just so sick of their smoke, having to change lanes or overtake to avoid me or the kids breathing their filth. Don't care about where the fuel comes from, it's the pollution that matters to me.



In the 80s and 90s yes there was smoke about. Big n/a IDI mechanical buses belching out clouds of grey. Where do you live? Seeing a smokey derv is so rare for me now.

When I went to South Africa and joined the 1st motorway I couldn't believe the amount of trucks pumping out insane amounts of diesel smoke, it was like they were all on their last legs. But here in the UK? Rare as hen's teeth round here.

David Jenkins - 3/4/23 at 07:49 AM

I used to think hydrogen might be the answer, but various sources have shown me that (A) it's not really practical, as it has to be kept at very high pressure, (B) it leaks through everything eventually, (C) still has to be transported around the country and (D) the oil industry loves it, as they see it as a way to make more money from their oil once petrol and diesel sales drop off.

Here's one source (but I have read quite a few that say similar things):



[Edited on 3/4/23 by David Jenkins]

coyoteboy - 3/4/23 at 08:59 AM

Yeah I almost never see smokey diesels anymore, only kids that have bought an old 306 and cranked up the fuel pressure. Modern ones are almost incredibly clean. Even my old 1KZ powered hilux rarely spits smoke unless I'm full throttling it up a hill.

roadrunner - 3/4/23 at 09:14 AM

https://youtu.be/3sUug1kfNps

JoelP - 3/4/23 at 09:43 AM

Pretty certain that the harmful pollution from diesels can't been seen. It's definitely there.

I personally look forward to the day they're gone.

coyoteboy - 3/4/23 at 10:20 AM

quote:
Originally posted by JoelP
Pretty certain that the harmful pollution from diesels can't been seen. It's definitely there.

I personally look forward to the day they're gone.


It's the PM2.5s and NOx emissions that they worry about (Soot from running too cold/rich, NOx from running too hot/lean). Most modern Ds operate lean and cool most of the time, only lean and hot when under load. Most of the current literature on 2015 cars shows that Ds emit the same NOx and 1-2% more CO2 in real world driving scenarios, and only 15% more NOx in high load driving which accounts for a very small percentage of the driving cycle. This is why DPFs and after treatment systems like EGR are vital, but perfectly usable to bring the emissions back in line with petrol. The vilification of (modern) diesels is mis-placed. If I have a 2 litre modern diesel, and you have a 2.5 litre modern petrol, you're probably emitting more than me (I don't, I have a 3 litre old diesel that is nearly 30 years old, but it is financially crazy to replace it).

[Edited on 3/4/23 by coyoteboy]

[Edited on 3/4/23 by coyoteboy]

russbost - 3/4/23 at 11:14 AM

quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
I used to think hydrogen might be the answer, but various sources have shown me that (A) it's not really practical, as it has to be kept at very high pressure, (B) it leaks through everything eventually, (C) still has to be transported around the country and (D) the oil industry loves it, as they see it as a way to make more money from their oil once petrol and diesel sales drop off.

Here's one source (but I have read quite a few that say similar things):



[Edited on 3/4/23 by David Jenkins]


I found that quite interesting, but they are taking just one guy's view, I have no idea what his agenda or biases are, but would be very hesitant to listen to one individual's view without researching dozens or hundreds more ........

I certainly can't agree with his view on big trucks - despite Tesla's outlandish claim's which it has yet to properly demonstrate in the real world, & speaking as an electric car owner, so I have some experience, his claim that many big trucks do no more than 250 miles a day, seems unlikely, but even if true, a 40 ton truck that can do 250 miles on one overnight charge (particularly in depths of winter or in generally colder climates) is going to need one massive shedload of batteries, so there's your space & payload gone, it's also going to to need some humungous cables to power it for that overnight charge particularly when parked alongside 50 other similar trucks that all need charging - pretty sure we're going to need an alternative here

The synthetic fuel thing is also interesting, but surely humungously expensive?

Add in the domestic heating side - I currently pay 1/7 the price of electricity for 1 kW of gas, & his estimate of 4:1 on heat pumps is waaay optimistic, you're looking at more like 2.5:1 when it gets significantly cold, to say nothing of the inefficiencies of heat pump type CH in older less well insulated buildings.

I'd say we're a loooong way from any sensible solution yet

roadrunner - 3/4/23 at 11:17 AM

I look forward to an electric car.
I watched this clip last year and thought how fast would a seven accelerate with an EV power plant.

Jump forward to 17 minutes.

https://youtu.be/YjFzhFHyYl4

BenB - 3/4/23 at 11:31 AM

Modern diesels are better than old ones but they still chuck out the schmoo. I had to take the egr valve off my old diesel as it wasn't working properly. It was clogged full of particulates, looked like someone had cast a bbq briquette in the tubing.

They could move away from lithium by moving to sodium batteries but they have worse energy density. Which means more energy hefting round the batteries....

David Jenkins - 3/4/23 at 11:42 AM

quote:
Originally posted by russbost

I found that quite interesting, but they are taking just one guy's view, I have no idea what his agenda or biases are, but would be very hesitant to listen to one individual's view without researching dozens or hundreds more ........

<snip>

I'd say we're a loooong way from any sensible solution yet


I did say that this was just one of many articles that I had seen and/or read. He's not alone, although I don't necessarily agree with everything he says.

I do agree that we're a long way from any easy solutions.

As an aside, It must be said that renewable energy sources don't cause very many environmental disasters... (e.g. Gulf of Mexico oil spill, Torrey Canyon oil spill, plus many thousands of other catastrophes).

russbost - 3/4/23 at 11:49 AM

"As an aside, It must be said that renewable energy sources don't cause very many environmental disasters... (e.g. Gulf of Mexico oil spill, Torrey Canyon oil spill, plus many thousands of other catastrophes)."

Agreed, but nor does properly managed nuclear - the problem there being disposal of used fuel, which wouldn't actually be a problem if we didn't have lunatic terrorists roaming the planet.

One major gripe I have with renewables is that instead of putting solar panels on industrial rooves, they are covering perfectly good farmland making it useless for crops .......

David Jenkins - 3/4/23 at 12:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by russbost
One major gripe I have with renewables is that instead of putting solar panels on industrial rooves, they are covering perfectly good farmland making it useless for crops .......


Very true - there are also quite a few desolate ex-industrial sites that could be used - old demolished power stations, chemical plants, and so on.

[Edited on 3/4/23 by David Jenkins]

Simon - 3/4/23 at 12:12 PM

Keep hearing the diesels are dirty but never seen the number people who died early after working in a bus garage all their lives....

coyoteboy - 3/4/23 at 12:13 PM

quote:
Originally posted by BenB
Modern diesels are better than old ones but they still chuck out the schmoo. I had to take the egr valve off my old diesel as it wasn't working properly. It was clogged full of particulates, looked like someone had cast a bbq briquette in the tubing.

They could move away from lithium by moving to sodium batteries but they have worse energy density. Which means more energy hefting round the batteries....


Kinda the point - the EGR recycles to reduce NOX output and of course it catches soot. Soot goes into the DPF where it is subsequently burned to less harmfull materials. Same as petrol.

Let's be honest, batteries have inherent problems too and all you're doing is moving the problem away from the point of use, but there are no current technological improvements likely to make decent power density jumps, especially not in clean forms. Nothing comes for free.

coyoteboy - 3/4/23 at 12:15 PM

quote:
Originally posted by russbost
One major gripe I have with renewables is that instead of putting solar panels on industrial rooves, they are covering perfectly good farmland making it useless for crops .......


TBH this is because it's not financially viable to run farms anymore, and land costs even of old sites, are huge. However Agrivoltaics are a real thing and give the positives of both.

cliftyhanger - 3/4/23 at 12:54 PM

sort of on this subject, I keep wondering if the Arabs etc will start sticking vast numbers of solar panels up in the deserts, and use the energy generated to make synthetic fuels. It would keep them in business as oil production falls (or IF it falls)

I also don't understand why tidal power is not utilised. Set up a number of tidal lagoons around the UK coastline, and we would have a totally predictable and reliable 24hr source of energy. The costs are not dafy either, there was scheme that went head tio head with teh chinese power station being built, and over the long term would have been cheaper AND the UK would not be lumbered with the massive decommissioning costs. Not to mention the stupid idea of having the chinese running a UK nuclear power plant.

coyoteboy - 3/4/23 at 01:03 PM

Make more sense to just export the power to neighbours.
Tidal isn't done because it turns out it has fairly hefty environmental impacts if done at scale and the costs involved are fairly large for the geoengineering involved.

David Jenkins - 3/4/23 at 01:17 PM

quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger

I also don't understand why tidal power is not utilised.


Salt water is incredibly corrosive, it's a hostile environment for maintenance workers, the sea is unforgiving and will, eventually, win against humans.

gremlin1234 - 3/4/23 at 02:09 PM

tfl tested hydrogen buses in north london about 10 years ago, but they had too much difficulty with hills (1 in 15 in places) but we now (and for the last 3 years!) have battery electric buses.

coyoteboy - 3/4/23 at 02:18 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
tfl tested hydrogen buses in north london about 10 years ago, but they had too much difficulty with hills (1 in 15 in places) but we now (and for the last 3 years!) have battery electric buses.


I'm guessing they were retrofitted gas fed hydrogen like the old school lpg conversions.

Hydrogen makes no sense until the power source for converting water to hydrogen is practically free and entirely renewable.

gremlin1234 - 3/4/23 at 02:26 PM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
I'm guessing they were retrofitted gas fed hydrogen like the old school lpg conversions.

yes, I think they probably were

edit to add, here is an article about them, though not as tested on my local route
https://busandtrainuser.com/2020/03/05/end-of-the-road-for-pioneering-hydrogen-buses/

[Edited on 3/4/23 by gremlin1234]

cliftyhanger - 3/4/23 at 03:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
quote:
Originally posted by cliftyhanger

I also don't understand why tidal power is not utilised.


Salt water is incredibly corrosive, it's a hostile environment for maintenance workers, the sea is unforgiving and will, eventually, win against humans.


I am not a marine engineer or whatever, but anecdotally we have been using prop powered ships for over 100 years. A simple prop connected to a generator is no different. As for maintenance, I can see no reason why prop modules cannot be pulled up out of the sea for maintenance. The whole point is that it is all simple technology, or could be. Rather easier than nuclear.

Circular lagoons offshore, generate electricity as the tide comes in and goes out, the only dead time is at absolute high and at some point around low tide, but that will only be short periods and predictable. As for environmental concerns, unless we are prepared to reduce energy consumption (as if) we are going to have to make some sacrifices. But worth considering many human structures in the sea provide homes for many species.

Simon - 3/4/23 at 06:05 PM

quote:
Originally posted by russbost
One major gripe I have with renewables is that instead of putting solar panels on industrial rooves, they are covering perfectly good farmland making it useless for crops .......


I wrote our MP (Greg Clark) when he was sec for energy etc

There were plans to build a solar farm on a nature reserve in north Kent that was a square mile.

I suggested the pv's could be put beside roads and central reservations but got some shite response.

Benzine - 3/4/23 at 07:00 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Simon
I suggested the pv's could be put beside roads and central reservations but got some shite response.


A reply about how they'd get covered in shite?


I know a farmer just over the border in Lincs who regularly takes her sheep to a solar farm for grazing. Nice mutual setup there.

[Edited on 3-4-2023 by Benzine]

jacko - 3/4/23 at 07:24 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Simon
Keep hearing the diesels are dirty but never seen the number people who died early after working in a bus garage all their lives....


I worked in a bus garage for 31 years when I went to work there in a morning you could not see your hand in front of you with black smoke the building had massive big fans in the roof
31years later no smoke at all except the old vintage buses they had
And yes I did have friends pass before they should have that worked there

rf900rush - 3/4/23 at 07:29 PM

How do these mupets thick EV's are clean?

It's not just the fuel / energy that drives it, you need to see the whole picture.

jacko - 3/4/23 at 07:31 PM

When I built my MK Indy 2004 there was a Dutch person building a mk Indy but it was going to be electric powered and there was a video on utube in them days I was at mk when they came to collect the kit
Graham

jacko - 3/4/23 at 07:35 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rf900rush
How do these mupets thick EV's are clean?

It's not just the fuel / energy that drives it, you need to see the whole picture.


Well this muppet is just looking for one at the moment not sure witch one yet &#128526;

Benzine - 3/4/23 at 07:47 PM



Inb4 omg lithium. Actually that was mentioned in the petition. Seriously though, please can someone explain to me how people who have never had the slightest concern for ICE production are suddenly aghast at lithium & cobalt (also used in ice and fuel production)

Simon - 3/4/23 at 09:07 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Benzine

Inb4 omg lithium.


But it's the price, as mentioned lithium has gone up over 1000% in three years - what's it gonna do when lots of people buy evs. There's 12m tonnes of lithium and it's going to make cars impossible to afford (yes, there's more in the ocean but that's be expensive to extract). And you can't honestly say that £40,000 for a Fiat 500 is value - nor the fact it'll be worthless out of warranty.

Hydrogen might not be the way, but ev's definitely aren't it either.

David Jenkins - 3/4/23 at 09:34 PM

This muppet has 2 EVs - mine and my wife's.

Mostly I drive mine because they're really nice to drive. Also on sunny days I can recharge via solar, otherwise I charge overnight on Octopus Go cheap rate (currently 5p a unit, will soon be 12p at next renewal - still cheaper than the day rate). Other factors are reliability (hardly any moving parts), cheaper maintenance, brake pads that can last 100k miles (they hardly get used during normal driving). and so on.

As for lithium and cobalt - the latest batteries hardly use cobalt, and they're working to eliminate it totally. The manufacturers are now looking at replacing lithium with sodium - they have already made these, and they work, but they don't have the energy density of lithium ones. They're working on that...

Simon - 3/4/23 at 10:44 PM

I had a deposit on a Model 3 before they were released but the budget version never arrived.... No such thing as a budget EV

Benzine - 4/4/23 at 06:02 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Simon

But it's the price, as mentioned lithium has gone up over 1000% in three years - what's it gonna do when lots of people buy evs. There's 12m tonnes of lithium and it's going to make cars impossible to afford (yes, there's more in the ocean but that's be expensive to extract). And you can't honestly say that £40,000 for a Fiat 500 is value - nor the fact it'll be worthless out of warranty.

Hydrogen might not be the way, but ev's definitely aren't it either.


Yes I agree with you there, EV prices are too damn high! I've been an EV fan for years and still don't have one. I do have a Vectrix bike which I'm making into a single seater reverse trike, it's the only way I could afford an EV!

All the posts complaining about lithium I've seen have been about mining and environmental concerns (often posted with false claims and even giant coal mining machine photos that people claim is lithium related). That was my focus on the meme I posted.

Re: hydrogen and EVs not being the way... they literally are, I mean they are now, it's happened and is happening. Hydrogen is a dead duck, refill station closed recently in London and there were only a handful to start with. Hydrogen will definitely have and does have it's uses though in some forms of transport and power/heating. Lots of projects on the Scottish Islands spring to mind.

russbost - 4/4/23 at 08:53 AM

Re EV's "nor the fact it'll be worthless out of warranty"

Right so a Nissan Leaf which is pretty knackered & has only around 65% battery left & will (if you're lucky) do around 80 miles on a full charge would clearly be worth about tuppence, right? Ummm, actually very hard to find a vaguely tidy Leaf for much under £5 - 6k, the batteries alone, sold on for home solar storage are worth between £2 - £3k, which also extends the life to re4cycling by probably 10 - 15 years!

Toys2 - 4/4/23 at 09:58 AM

Another “muppet” ev owner here

A couple of comments to throw into the mix

There’s a report from Volvo that’s worth reading, in summary EV’s obviously do have a greater impact on the environment during manufacturing, they become equal to ICE vehicles at approx 45k miles in Europe, after that they are more environmental compared to similar ICE vehicles. It’s estimated that over the total lifespan, the EV will produce 17 tonnes less CO2 than its equivalent ICE. These figures include materials, manufacturing, fuel, scrappage and recycling

Talk about 2nd hand value surprises me with the lack of facts, today’s batteries are estimated to last 300-500K miles, we’ll see if that’s true, I can believe it… if a Leaf with its small battery can do 120k miles, my battery that’s 3 times the size, better chemistry, water cooled and better battery management, should easily last 3x longer
Battery state of health is easily measured, in that respect it’s easier to asses the health of an EV than an ICE engine
There will be a booming industry of replacement and refurbished batteries as well as recycling

On the subject of cost, I traded in my 7 year old diesel, used that as the deposit on a PCP, my monthlies are £225, which is about the same as my fuel savings. So a new higher spec car with warranty for the same money as an old diesel that was starting to cost money in repairs

russbost - 4/4/23 at 10:32 AM

quote:
Originally posted by jacko
quote:
Originally posted by rf900rush
How do these mupets thick EV's are clean?

It's not just the fuel / energy that drives it, you need to see the whole picture.


Well this muppet is just looking for one at the moment not sure witch one yet &#128526;


From an existing Muppet EV owner, I have a 64kW Kona & in the medium budget range I felt the only cars worth looking at were the Kona & the ID3, anything else has crap range. I get the advertised 300 miles on a full charge in the summer months & around 220-230 in winter months running the heater etc. if you had the heat exchanger (around £900 IIRC) that would extend the winter range to probably only 10% lower than the summer. I was paying £3.40 for a full charge, that's now doubled on the new tarif to £6.40, but you ain't gonna get 250 miles on £6.40 in anything other than an EV - however you sure as hell don't want to be charging much away from home, the worst I've seen was 86p a unnit IIRC, compared with the 10p I'm paying that's really not a bargain!

In terms of looks & practicality I thought the MG estate was incredible value, but starts out with only around 224 mile range - not far enough for my journeys in anything other than middle of summer .....

jacko - 4/4/23 at 04:55 PM

quote:
Originally posted by gremlin1234
tfl tested hydrogen buses in north london about 10 years ago, but they had too much difficulty with hills (1 in 15 in places) but we now (and for the last 3 years!) have battery electric buses.


This is quite funny as we had 10 electric buses and converted all of them to diesel engine buses
When electric there was never all 10 on the road at the same time there was always 1 or 2 off with electric problems
And the cost was phenomenal on parts and batteries
Graham

coyoteboy - 4/4/23 at 05:20 PM

quote:
Originally posted by rf900rush
How do these mupets thick EV's are clean?

It's not just the fuel / energy that drives it, you need to see the whole picture.


The thing is the whole picture is well mapped out. This argument is done to death. Production energy use and unpleasant chemical use are well accounted for. And that's with first generation cars, it will only get better. You ever dig into the details of what's used for fossil fuel extraction, separation, plastics production in any vehicle?

I don't have one because it doesn't fit my use case and they're too expensive. If I had a general job and wanted to buy a car on finance, I might.

[Edited on 4/4/23 by coyoteboy]

SteveWalker - 4/4/23 at 05:24 PM

We've recently got an EV (an MG4), which we are very pleased with. However, we got it with the limitations in mind. It'll be great for most of our journeys and will virtually always be charged at home. However, we also have a petrol car, which will now be little used, but at least it is available instantly, regardless of fuel level, can drive longer distances, with little or no stopping, tow, carry stuff on roof-bars, etc.

Basically, the EV will cover more than 95% of our journeys, but is not up to towing a caravan, carrying a roof box (with 5 of us and a mobility scooter, there is no space for anything in the car if we go away for a week) and cannot do (as we have done twice with the petrol car), arriving home from work in the evening, finding a message that a relative died in the night and that the funeral is at 11:00 tomorrow and being able to make it.

Too late by the time we could get organised and get the kids to my parents, to fly that night; first flight in the morning too late to pick up a hire car and get to the funeral; so having to drive.

From Manchester to Holyhead; Dublin to Sligo, arriving with 15 minutes to spare; leave the church service to go to the cemetery; leave that service to go to a family meal; leave the meal to drive to Belfast; drive from Stranraer to Manchester, picking the kids up on the way home.

No way to fit in charging and no chance of getting there without. The petrol car did it with two 10 minute stops for fuel, toilet and driver change and no waiting for a pump to come free. With the tight time schedule, if we'd only had an EV, we couldn't even have afforded the time needed to pick up a hire car to enable the long drive.

In the past, on holiday with four people, all insured to drive the car, we have done Manchester to Nottingham, to Dover; Calais to Frankfurt. Overnighted there and carried on to Salzburg the next day. With the need for EV charging, we'd have lost at least another night each way, making a one week trip a waste of time.

The EV is great, but currently, only with the back up of a petrol or diesel car to cover the few bits that it can't do.

Mr Whippy - 5/4/23 at 11:45 AM

ahh I call total BS on all you haters, stop pretending and just get an EV, we know you really want one

Just go Bruuumm Bruumm if you still like engine noises! although I like the Batmobile noise they make

I have an work colleague who bitches all the time about EV's blah blah blah but when to get to the reason it's just because he parks on a street and can't charge it lol

SJ - 5/4/23 at 02:51 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Simon
Keep hearing the diesels are dirty but never seen the number people who died early after working in a bus garage all their lives....


I used to work down the pit. We had diesel locos underground. There was ventilation but it was still pretty enclosed.

SJ - 5/4/23 at 02:53 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
ahh I call total BS on all you haters, stop pretending and just get an EV, we know you really want one

Just go Bruuumm Bruumm if you still like engine noises! although I like the Batmobile noise they make

I have an work colleague who bitches all the time about EV's blah blah blah but when to get to the reason it's just because he parks on a street and can't charge it lol


If I wanted one I'd buy one. Charging would be no problem, but I really don't like them. Once charging is under 10 mins though then a different matter.

[Edited on 5/4/23 by SJ]

roadrunner - 5/4/23 at 02:53 PM

Just had a passenger ride in my first EV.
Tesla model Y. Very nice and bloody quick.

David Jenkins - 5/4/23 at 03:57 PM

quote:
Originally posted by roadrunner
Just had a passenger ride in my first EV.
Tesla model Y. Very nice and bloody quick.


I recently drove a Tesla Model Y dual motor - decided to floor it from 30mph - then decided that I wasn't going to do that again with someone else's £60k car! That's a bl**dy big car to throw down the road at those sorts of speeds...

David Jenkins - 5/4/23 at 04:00 PM

There's a good video on YouTube about an old-ish Ferrari that was converted to electric, using Tesla running gear. Gone were the £3k - £5k annual service costs, it went much faster, was lighter, and handled a lot better as the batteries were placed to get 50:50 weight distribution.

Not sure I'd want to pay approaching £100k for the conversion though...

coyoteboy - 5/4/23 at 08:03 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
ahh I call total BS on all you haters, stop pretending and just get an EV, we know you really want one

Just go Bruuumm Bruumm if you still like engine noises! although I like the Batmobile noise they make

I have an work colleague who bitches all the time about EV's blah blah blah but when to get to the reason it's just because he parks on a street and can't charge it lol


&#128514; I hate the noises they make, or don't make! In NL they're very common and if you're in a car park you have to be super vigilant or you run over in a heartbeat because they're so quiet. Had a few near misses.

But what stops me is their price. It's mental. But I find new cars mental in general. I always buy 3k used cars, I've no interest in spending 3/4/500 a month on a car that doesn't do the things my 3k car does.

coyoteboy - 5/4/23 at 08:14 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
ahh I call total BS on all you haters, stop pretending and just get an EV, we know you really want one

Just go Bruuumm Bruumm if you still like engine noises! although I like the Batmobile noise they make

I have an work colleague who bitches all the time about EV's blah blah blah but when to get to the reason it's just because he parks on a street and can't charge it lol


&#128514; I hate the noises they make, or don't make! In NL they're very common and if you're in a car park you have to be super vigilant or you run over in a heartbeat because they're so quiet. Had a few near misses.

But what stops me is their price. It's mental. But I find new cars mental in general. I always buy 3k used cars, I've no interest in spending 3/4/500 a month on a car that doesn't do the things my 3k car does.

Mr Whippy - 5/4/23 at 09:22 PM

quote:
Originally posted by SJ
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
ahh I call total BS on all you haters, stop pretending and just get an EV, we know you really want one

Just go Bruuumm Bruumm if you still like engine noises! although I like the Batmobile noise they make

I have an work colleague who bitches all the time about EV's blah blah blah but when to get to the reason it's just because he parks on a street and can't charge it lol


If I wanted one I'd buy one. Charging would be no problem, but I really don't like them. Once charging is under 10 mins though then a different matter.

[Edited on 5/4/23 by SJ]


Everyday charging takes around 30 seconds.

15 to plug it in, 15 to unplug. Charges overnight when I'm not using it and have a full battery in the morning. Really for a 30 mile daily commute mine only needs charged every third day which works out about 1 and half minutes per week. My Fiesta lasts about two weeks on a tank of fuel to do the same trip and it takes about 10 mins to fuel that up (plus the time to go to the petrol station as I don't have one of those at home). So the EV is roughly 3 times faster to refuel than petrol but probably a lot more.

When you own and use an EV you start to realise that a lot of the arguments against them seem totally daft.

coyoteboy - 5/4/23 at 10:30 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy


Everyday charging takes around 30 seconds.
When you own and use an EV you start to realise that a lot of the arguments against them seem totally daft.


Not really, no one cares about the daily charging. Anyone who cares about charging is going to be someone who does long trips, not someone who uses it for a piffling commute.

That's very much an oversimplification for a single use case, and while it's a use case most people will have most of the time, that still means you need two cars, or to rent one at the current crazy prices.

It doesn't work for everyone. I'd encourage people to see if it works for them though, as I'm sure it does in many cases.

SJ - 6/4/23 at 08:01 AM

quote:
Originally posted by coyoteboy
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy


Everyday charging takes around 30 seconds.
When you own and use an EV you start to realise that a lot of the arguments against them seem totally daft.


Not really, no one cares about the daily charging. Anyone who cares about charging is going to be someone who does long trips, not someone who uses it for a piffling commute.

That's very much an oversimplification for a single use case, and while it's a use case most people will have most of the time, that still means you need two cars, or to rent one at the current crazy prices.

It doesn't work for everyone. I'd encourage people to see if it works for them though, as I'm sure it does in many cases.


I agree, they are great for local use, electric bikes/ motorbikes even more so. I don't commute but often need to do 400 miles in as few hours as possible so electric would be a struggle.

David Jenkins - 6/4/23 at 10:02 AM

I should add that a couple of years ago I drove from home in Suffolk to visit friends on the Isle of Skye, then on to see my brother in Dornoch (way north of Inverness!), generally touring around, then home. A round trip of about 1500 miles in 2 weeks in my Kia Niro EV.

Rapid charging mostly went ok, but many of the chargers in Scotland were faulty - got a little stressful at times, although we never ran out anywhere. To be precise, most of the Chargeplace Scotland chargers were rubbish, those run by proper organisations (e.g. BP Pulse) were mostly good, sometimes extremely good.

We often drive down to Gloucester - we prefer to go across country 'cos motorways are boring, so we stop for a pee and food break in Milton Keynes, where there are LOTS of rapid chargers. By the time the car is charged enough for the rest of the journey (really it's just a peace-of-mind top-up) we are fed and watered. The cost of electricity on rapid chargers for these long journeys is much the same as the petrol we would have used in an ICE car.

EVs don't suit everyone - they never will - but they are good for my normal use, and our occasional long trips.

Mr Whippy - 6/4/23 at 12:04 PM

The whole banning of new combustion cars doesn't matter anyway as cars last at least 20 years, so those who need them for specific uses such as towing or long journeys have loads of second hand ones to pick from and by the time those are no longer available, EV's will be at such a level that they will out class the anything else in every aspect. Tesla might even have self driving working by then

If an EV suits your needs I'd say get one, if not don't. It's that simple.